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Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

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Are you a Loyalist or a Jumper?
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Avengers - jumped the shark halfway through the second season of The New Avengers, when they let the French & Canadian TV partners have their say.

Not really Shark Jumping, as that usually involves creative decisions that take a show away from it's core principles. The change to filming in Canada was purely financial, and the episodes made over there were actually a lot more like Tara King episodes than the UK based ones filmed before them...


Well for me, its still the Shark Jumping moment. In particular, the Canadian episodes are almost totally alien to the Avengers.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

In particular, the Canadian episodes are almost totally alien to the Avengers.

hmm... I still don't see that. To me, they're closer in style and content to some of the Mrs Peel or Tara King episodes than most of the earlier TNA episodes where; the one set in the tower block is very like a Diana Rigg story.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

In particular, the Canadian episodes are almost totally alien to the Avengers.

hmm... I still don't see that. To me, they're closer in style and content to some of the Mrs Peel or Tara King episodes than most of the earlier TNA episodes where; the one set in the tower block is very like a Diana Rigg story.


All I can remember of these episodes is the super human beings one, or the American road trip one. Neither of which are remotely Avengers like.
 
peladon
OK I am now totally confused. Is it a total loss of quality or just a few episodes? Or is it to do wiith slipping from core principles or resorting to stupid plot devices?

Taking what I sort of think I understand from this I would say the B7 swam alongside the shark for parts of SC, then jumped the shark at Rescue, tried for but missed the jump for Stardrive and just circled it in Traitor plucking up courage, then rode the Shark for most of the rest of the series, falling off briefly again during Warlord before jumping it again in Blake.... I think...
 
Anniew
Wow Peladon, that's a lot of sharks!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
JustBrad
The original jumping of the shark.

https://www.youtu...4ZGKI8vpcg
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

OK I am now totally confused. Is it a total loss of quality or just a few episodes? Or is it to do wiith slipping from core principles or resorting to stupid plot devices?

Taking what I sort of think I understand from this I would say the B7 swam alongside the shark for parts of SC, then jumped the shark at Rescue, tried for but missed the jump for Stardrive and just circled it in Traitor plucking up courage, then rode the Shark for most of the rest of the series, falling off briefly again during Warlord before jumping it again in Blake.... I think...


Peladon, it's more of a sustained loss of quality that is never recovered and whether you feel that happened.

It's possible for a long-running show to jump and then jump back i.e. have two or three rubbish years but then became good again. B7 didn't really go long enough to be a multiple jumper, so it's just a question of whether you felt it "Jumped the Shark" at any point, as per the Wikipedia link.
 
trevor travis
I've decided that Doctor Who did jump the shark with the introduction of Bonnie Langford in 1986. It threatened to jump back with Remembrance Of The Daleks, but then came (aaarghhh!!!) the Happiness Patrol. Therefore Doctor Who didn't jump back until Season 26 in 1989, some three years after it jumped.

DW had a lot of other potential Jump The Shark moments, but never with the subsequent substained loss of quality that is evident in Seasons 23, 24 & 25.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

I've decided that Doctor Who did jump the shark with the introduction of Bonnie Langford in 1986. It threatened to jump back with Remembrance Of The Daleks, but then came (aaarghhh!!!) the Happiness Patrol. Therefore Doctor Who didn't jump back until Season 26 in 1989, some three years after it jumped.

DW had a lot of other potential Jump The Shark moments, but never with the subsequent substained loss of quality that is evident in Seasons 23, 24 & 25.

Bonnie was amazing! Mel is one of my favourite characters Grin

...and s24 had its moments of excellence too. No shark jumping there. Grin


If Doctor Who ever did jump the shark, and I'm not fully convinced it ever has, it must be the first time an overtly comedic direction was chosen under Graham Williams - not just with Douglas Adams, but with the Key to Time quest before it. The legendary Christopher Hamilton Bidmead transposed it back over the shark with some complex mathematics in s18...
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
If you're not sure if a show has jumped the shark or not, does that make you a woolly jumper...?
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
If Doctor Who ever did jump the shark, and I'm not fully convinced it ever has, it must be the first time an overtly comedic direction was chosen under Graham Williams - not just with Douglas Adams, but with the Key to Time quest before it. The legendary Christopher Hamilton Bidmead transposed it back over the shark with some complex mathematics in s18...


SD, City Of Death happened the wrong side of the shark? It's my favourite DW story of all-time Wink

As for suggesting Duggan happened on the wrong side of the shark, Paula will have her Welsh Street Sign poised for you in October Grin (Note how my shark-jumping moment is tactically poised just after The Mysterious Planet!!! Grin Grin )

And I tend to think there's a bit of petty jealousy from Chris H Bidmead towards Douglas Adams, as Douglas gave science lectures, and mixed with prominent scientists. Douglas had a brilliant, if eccentric, grip on science, and could make that entertaining. He saw maths as something mind-expanding, unlike Chris H Bidmead, whose narrow vision of mathematics in Logopolis is a load of boring old men chanting numbers! There was a lot of jealousy and spite in the infamous DWM Chris Bidmead interview - he came across as another Eric Saward, an embittered man. Although the Gary Downie and Clive Swift DWM interviews were even more eyebrow-raising Wink
Edited by trevor travis on 16 February 2015 08:28:13
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

If you're not sure if a show has jumped the shark or not, does that make you a woolly jumper...?


Yes it does Grin
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
If Doctor Who ever did jump the shark, and I'm not fully convinced it ever has, it must be the first time an overtly comedic direction was chosen under Graham Williams - not just with Douglas Adams, but with the Key to Time quest before it. The legendary Christopher Hamilton Bidmead transposed it back over the shark with some complex mathematics in s18...

SD, City Of Death happened the wrong side of the shark? It's my favourite DW story of all-time Wink

As for suggesting Duggan happened on the wrong side of the shark, Paula will have her Welsh Street Sign poised for you in October Grin

Well, that's why I'm not sure the show ever has jumped. s16 and s17 are hugely entertaining, but very different to the more serious fantasy drama of previous years. Both seasons are a lot of fun, but at the same very shallow scientifically and emotionally; compare with Weng Chiang which has loads of humour, but where the emotions of fear and loss and betrayal are all still played as drama. So the Williams era for me does have a drop in quality, but only in one or two aspects ie serious character drama; but it also makes up for this in other ways.

(Note how my shark-jumping moment is tactically poised just after The Mysterious Planet!!! Grin Grin )

Very wise Grin
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
President Solvite

Star Trek: The Original Series never jumped the shark because it was rubbish all along Wink



All 79 episodes? The episodes that won various awards?? Has had such an impact on 20th century America, naming of Space Shuttles etc.. It is to the US consciousness to what Doctor Who is to the UK!!

I'll skip the numerous nominations details and just deal with the winners. (but take into account at least 20 Emmy nominations and a dozen Hugo nominations over the 60's

Hugo dramatic presentation awards list these episodes in 1967 The Menagerie and The City on the Edge of Forever. Also The won best written dramatic episode in 1968.

Plus various awards since, Saturn, TV Land and Television Critics Associate Awards

The Pilot and 2nd Pilot are also excellent, numerous good examples are present in all three series. Doomsday Machine, Enterprise Incident, Operation Annihilate to name but a very few!

What I think can be taken to be meant of course, it had that magical formula that couldn't be beat, nothing needed to be changed therefore no shark jumping was necessary. Yes a lot has been said much could have been better (re Character development) But it was a show ahead of its time nevertheless.

Whereas Buck Rogers had to reinvent itself, even Gil Gerrard wasn't happy with the show's direction and when your cast are unhappy with the work that they are doing the part of ways will occur.

Buck Rogers did have quite a catchy theme tune (along with Wilma's lip gloss) which just about sums up the winning and award nominations for said series.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
All joking aside for a moment, let's be fair to Graham Williams - this was exactly the remit he was given by his BBC bosses, to reduce the horror in Doctor Who and replace it with more comedic elements.

Philip Hinchcliffe is seen as some sort of god (and his era is very, very, very strong), but:
1. He got into trouble over going the top with the violence. He is the only producer of Doctor Who who was ordered off the show, rather than making the decision himself. That doesn’t say a lot about the judgement of BBC bosses, but it did happen.
2. He overspent horrifically, especially when he knew he was going. There are rumours than Talons was more than 100% over budget!! That’s not the actions of a responsible producer, and therefore his successor had to be extremely budget conscious.

Graham Williams could do horror very well – “Horror Of Fang Rock” (thought of an as Hinchcliffe left-over, but it’s not, as Terrance Dicks had to write a completely new tale after BBC bosses vetoed his vampire story), “Image Of The Fendahl” and “The Stones Of Blood” (first two episodes) are examples. However, that’s not what his bosses wanted, so he couldn’t do a whole season of such stories. The Williams era gets smarter as it goes along, the horror is still there, but absorbed more within the plots.

And of course Douglas Adams as script editor was always going to have an influence, once we reach Season 17. But what we get is some of the cleverest, wittiest DW writing ever. After all, there was a genius as script editor. The word genius is sometimes over-used, but Adams was one. Humour is fine as long as it’s actually funny, and with Douglas Adams, it is. But at the same time, his grip on science is unparalleled amongst DW writers. This is where I find Chris H Bidmead’s scathing and bitter remarks over Douglas Adams over the years to be absurd. Bidmead had an academic, dry and closed view on science. Douglas had a mind-expanding and forward thinking view on science, that was perfect for Who. He made you laugh and made you think at the same time. As I said before, a genius.
 
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:


Star Trek: The Original Series never jumped the shark because it was rubbish all along Wink



All 79 episodes?


2 or 3 were good.

I like "City At The Edge Of Forever." And the one where they bump into God in space.

And the pilot without Kirk in it Grin

No make that 4 OK episodes, because there's also the episode from the original series with Khan in it.

But that's about it.

Sorry, I just find Star Trek: The Original Series to be very pompous and self-important, with a sanitised vision of the future. No thanks, I'll take B7, with a future populated with real people rather than cardboard cut-out Kirk Grin
 
President Solvite
It was indeed a sanitised view of the future.

FYI The original episode with Khan is Space Seed.

I think your take of it TT is very much a casual memory of the series, it is a lot deeper than that. 'The one that they bump God into space' are you thinking of the Film Star Trek V - The Final Frontier?

Whilst your knowledge on Who and background is considerable I feel you are scrabbling around in the dust here, reaching for that handful of sulphur, a bit of bamboo tubing and a bit of coal with some diamond shot in a desperate bit to make some kind of primitive hand cannon, before the man in the rubber suit deals you a sharp point of flint. Oh and true to form you have managed to rip your costume on location! Pfft

I do agree though that I tend to prefer B7 and similar concepts which have a gritter base. But old series Trek has that magic which simply cannot be beat. Indeed Trek was fairly mimicking the format of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. Another great series, which to my recollection also didn't do much in the way of Shark jumping.

New Series Trek didn't really have much going for it apart from DS9 (which was ripped off from Babylon 5) and the last few series of Enterprise perhaps when it had a major change in writers and style. Indeed perhaps trying to make it more like Blake's 7 or thinking of other series like Lexx, Farscape or Firefly.

Also worthwhile series and worth watching if you haven't done so already.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

I think your take of it TT is very much a casual memory of the series, it is a lot deeper than that. 'The one that they bump God into space' are you thinking of the Film Star Trek V - The Final Frontier?


No it's an episode from the original series.

The Final Frontier is a horrible film. 2, 4 and 6 are the decent films.

I did watch the Original Series when it was repeated on BBC2, in the mid-nineties. I kept on hoping it would get better, but it hardly ever did.

There's nothing to say a B7 fan automatically has to be a fan of Star Trek. I'm certainly not. Wink
 
President Solvite
There's an episode called Who Mourns for Adonis that rings a few bells but I don't recall him being called 'God' as such but he is an alien who claims to be and was once called 'Apollo'. Whilst not being the best Trek episode in my opinion perhaps it certainly has an intelligent enough plot and makes more sense scientifically speaking than a comparable B7 episode Dawn of the Gods!

Having all three seasons (original model shots) I rewatch Trek on a semi frequent basis and am impressed how many of the episodes hold up after all this time

Well okay Spock's Brain maybe not so much, but it's still a great laugh and more fun to watch say than the B7 episode 'Power'.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
mrsbookmark
Anniew wrote:

No, though I will probably regret to my dying day we never saw Avon jump a shark. There were absurdities in all seasons and points when even a devoted fan like me had to ask 'Really?'. The philosophical flea stretched my credulity. Cally's possession AGAIN . Jenna's high heeled heroics! Servalan's miraculous escapes and reinvention as Slear. Blake as an episode leaves more questions than it answers. But each episode had such gusto and always left me rooting for, feeling for, screaming at the characters and loving the dialogue. If an episode had a point to make it did so subtly, unlike Star Trek that yelled its message, underlined it, served it to you on toast in case you didn't get it. And Blakes 7 never suffered from the sin of seriousness, never believed its own myths and had that dreadful solemnity that often occurs when people write or speak about other shows - you know as if they're in church. I can watch it today with the same enjoyment I did when it was first televised. Loyalist!



YES!!!! I am a life long Trekkie, but in all honestly, I think I may like Blake's 7 more now in terms of overall trajectory compared to Original Series and TNG. (DS9 is my space based soap opera so I place it in a category by itself) I find I just like watching the episodes and analyzing them. Changing tastes? Newness? Age? I don't know. I can overlook some of the silly stuff (the whole Slear thing still makes no sense to me. I mean, why even bother with that...). I never saw it jump the shark, even at its weaker moments, because so many actors had a handle on their characters. I think that's why the audio dramas etc work well because there is such a depth to the universe.
 
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