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Blake's 7 Online - Horizon, the B7 Appreciation Society :: General :: Blake's 7 Discussion (Classic B7)
 Jenna
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| saba |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:01
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 Alpha Grade  Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Thanks for starting this discussion Tyce. Just picking up on the Alpha question... Servalan says of Jenna, in the Keeper, that "she is a superior grade citizen of the Federation. Her IQ is very high." And Jenna of course tells Tara that she comes from Earth. I can't remember off hand whether this is the authority for thinking she's an Alpha, or whether it's spelled out elsewhere. Whatever Alpha might have meant, of course. "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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| Tyce |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:19
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Beta Grade Posts: 891 Joined: 09.09.09 |
saba wrote: ........where was Jenna standing, and in what circumstances? If she was there, you'd expect her to be instantly running forward. Please check transcripts when you have a minute - love to know the outcome…. I would assume Jenna was restrained. I always had the feeling that we as the audience were looking through Jenna’s eyes but could do nothing. saba wrote: But I'd never seen Jenna as passionately anti Federation, nor as nursing any particularly overwhelming offence of that kind of magnitude - but as being rather anarchic, a rebel, someone who had her own code, and therefore ran foul of the Federation. I’m not suggesting that Jenna consciously anti Federation, I don’t think it ever consciously crossed her mind. I’m just saying deep down she knew right from wrong. So once her life had changed by ending up on the London and Blake was on the scene spouting his ideas of freedom it did take much for her to follow Blake. I used to have a life.......then I found Horizon! |
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| saba |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:27
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Alpha Grade Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Here it is (Tyce, I don't know if you've come across the Hermit website - there are transcripts for all episodes in the Library section  - I find them really useful): JENNA What is it? BLAKE I don't know. [Closeup Jenna. Hallucination of a blonde woman surrounded by three Federation troopers. The woman is screaming.] [Closeup Avon. Hallucination of a fair-haired man, early 30s, silently repeating, "Avon."] [Closeup Blake.] BLAKE You're dead. Those tapes are forgeries. You're dead! [The others move towards the sphere.] BLAKE No, no. Get back! [Blake shoves Jenna to one side. He tries to shove Avon away from the sphere, but Avon pushes him back.] AVON I must go to him. [Blake knocks him over. Jenna starts to reach for the sphere again. Blake whirls round and shoots the sphere. Jenna gives a short scream.] JENNA What was it? BLAKE I don't know. JENNA I saw my mother. It was so real. Then something terrible, a nightmare. But it was my mother. AVON I saw my brother. It used him like bait. I had to go closer. BLAKE And if you had, it would have killed you. No, that thing took an image out of your minds, a memory, and then projected it back at you as though it were real. JENNA But why didn't it affect you? BLAKE It did, but somehow I knew it wasn't real. [To Avon] Seems I can recognize dreams. Jenna described it as a nightmare, Blake said it took an image/a memory and projected it... so another excellent bit of ambiguity! Take your pick which way you interpret it! "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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| Tyce |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:43
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Beta Grade Posts: 891 Joined: 09.09.09 |
saba wrote: Thanks for starting this discussion Tyce. Just picking up on the Alpha question... Servalan says of Jenna, in the Keeper, that "she is a superior grade citizen of the Federation. Her IQ is very high." And Jenna of course tells Tara that she comes from Earth. I can't remember off hand whether this is the authority for thinking she's an Alpha, or whether it's spelled out elsewhere. Whatever Alpha might have meant, of course. You are correct Servalan does say that. Which could blow my theory to pieces? Although I do wonder what one has to do to have the honour of being classed a "superior grade citizen of the Federation" removed. Servalan specifically says that "she is a superior grade citizen .." not "she was a superior grade citizen …" As Jenna is now a political criminal surely if it were possible to strip someone of such a rank she would no longer be consider a "superior grade citizen”. I therefore assume this is a birth right. This would mean Jenna would be considered a "superior grade citizen” even if she was institutionalised. Probably a better reasoning for your Alpha argument is the comment “Her IQ is very high” as I’m not sure the Federation would care about the IQ of someone in an institution. Edited by Tyce on 05-02-2010 15:46 I used to have a life.......then I found Horizon! |
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| Tyce |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:45
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Beta Grade Posts: 891 Joined: 09.09.09 |
You realise it is nearly 3am here and I should have long since been in bed....... I need psychiatric help - where's that sad mad thread again??? Edited by Tyce on 05-02-2010 15:47 I used to have a life.......then I found Horizon! |
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| Tyce |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:52
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Beta Grade Posts: 891 Joined: 09.09.09 |
saba wrote: JENNA What was it? BLAKE I don't know. JENNA I saw my mother. It was so real. Then something terrible, a nightmare. But it was my mother. AVON I saw my brother. It used him like bait. I had to go closer. BLAKE And if you had, it would have killed you. No, that thing took an image out of your minds, a memory, and then projected it back at you as though it were real. JENNA But why didn't it affect you? BLAKE It did, but somehow I knew it wasn't real. [To Avon] Seems I can recognize dreams. Jenna described it as a nightmare, Blake said it took an image/a memory and projected it... so another excellent bit of ambiguity! Take your pick which way you interpret it! Thanks for that Saba. Yes I confess I have always focussed on Blake's interpretation but as you say it is subjective and does nothing to resolve this debate. I used to have a life.......then I found Horizon! |
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| saba |
Posted on 05-02-2010 15:55
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Alpha Grade Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Tyce wrote: saba wrote: Thanks for starting this discussion Tyce. Just picking up on the Alpha question... Servalan says of Jenna, in the Keeper, that "she is a superior grade citizen of the Federation. Her IQ is very high." And Jenna of course tells Tara that she comes from Earth. I can't remember off hand whether this is the authority for thinking she's an Alpha, or whether it's spelled out elsewhere. Whatever Alpha might have meant, of course. You are correct Servalan does say that. Which could blow my theory to pieces? Although I do wonder what one has to do to have the honour of being classed a "superior grade citizen of the Federation" removed. Servalan specifically says that "she is a superior grade citizen .." not "she was a superior grade citizen …" As Jenna is now a political criminal surely if it were possible to strip someone of such a rank she would no longer be consider a "superior grade citizen”. I therefore assume this is a birth right. This would mean Jenna would be considered a "superior grade citizen” even if she was institutionalised. Probably a better reasoning for your Alpha argument is the comment “Her IQ is very high” as I’m not sure the Federation would care about the IQ of someone in an institution. It could be that Servalan was showing a rare moment of consideration and rather than saying "She is graded Alpha" says "She is a superior grade" - thus putting it into terms that her listener - from another culture - would understand. Or it may have been simply that the writer hadn't been briefed on Alphas! Edited by saba on 05-02-2010 15:55 "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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| BradPaula |
Posted on 05-02-2010 17:33
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 Beta Grade Posts: 1410 Joined: 09.09.09 |
Tyce wrote: saba wrote: Thanks for starting this discussion Tyce. Just picking up on the Alpha question... Servalan says of Jenna, in the Keeper, that "she is a superior grade citizen of the Federation. Her IQ is very high." And Jenna of course tells Tara that she comes from Earth. I can't remember off hand whether this is the authority for thinking she's an Alpha, or whether it's spelled out elsewhere. Whatever Alpha might have meant, of course. You are correct Servalan does say that. Which could blow my theory to pieces? Although I do wonder what one has to do to have the honour of being classed a "superior grade citizen of the Federation" removed. Servalan specifically says that "she is a superior grade citizen .." not "she was a superior grade citizen …" As Jenna is now a political criminal surely if it were possible to strip someone of such a rank she would no longer be consider a "superior grade citizen”. I therefore assume this is a birth right. This would mean Jenna would be considered a "superior grade citizen” even if she was institutionalised. Probably a better reasoning for your Alpha argument is the comment “Her IQ is very high” as I’m not sure the Federation would care about the IQ of someone in an institution. In Weapon it is made apparent that Alphas look down on Betas. Assuming that Servalan is an Alpha (otherwise how did she become SC?) it seems unlikely that an establishment Alpha would call a Beta or Gamma a Superior Grade Citizen. I therefore assume Jenna is an Alpha. Sum Non Expendere, Sum Non Plumbeus, Sum Non Progressus |
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| dragonq |
Posted on 05-02-2010 23:22
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 Gamma Grade  Posts: 120 Joined: 08.09.09 |
I think Servalan's comment was addressed to people who would not have known what an Alpha was. Superior Grade citizen was probably simply the most comprehensible way of putting it to someone on Goth. Personally I don't think I ever had any doubt that Jenna was an Alpha; but I can't remember whether it was this remark and assumption, or if it was ever explicitly stated. |
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| BradPaula |
Posted on 06-02-2010 04:43
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Beta Grade Posts: 1410 Joined: 09.09.09 |
IIRC the only one whose grade is specifically stated is Villa's Delta, or Fourth Grade Ignorant (Delta being the fourth designation). And Coser's Beta grade, of course.
Sum Non Expendere, Sum Non Plumbeus, Sum Non Progressus |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 06-02-2010 07:34
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 Moderator  Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Such interesting speculations- thanks for turning our attention to Jenna's early years, Tyce, and for your carefully considered opinions. I'll probably go back to the thread over the next few days, but just wanted to throw in my 2p about a few matters. I agree with those of you who's said that Servalan is referring to Jenna as a "superior grade citizen of the Federation", because Gola is unlikely to understand the meaning of "An Alpha grade". (He seems so caveman-like at times, I'd question his understanding of the word "superior", but let's not go there.) To me Jenna is nothing less than an Alpha- and I would have believed so even without Servalan's words. She's too intelligent and has got too much class to be anything less than that. What I find very interesting is that Jenna is different than the other Alphas we see on screen. Her relationships do not reflect at all any superiority along those lines- she is kind to Gan and sarcastic at Avon's expense. (Blake, Avon and Tarrant who are the other certain Alphas, tend to treat people who aren't on their "level" with a difference- and with the three men it shows rather differently too. I won't presume how much of it is because they were brought up as Alphas, and thus brainwashed (sorry Blake!) to regard the other grades as inferior. Just a point of reflection.) Going back to Jenna, I believe she is an Alpha alright, but she hasn't grown up in a "normal" Federation world, where this had mattered. AND I believe she doesn't care about that sort of thing- but that her air of superiority, which she carries so effortlessly, is something inheritantly hers. One last thing (for now!  )- not a 100% sure about the projection of her mother's distress, but am more inclined to believe this was something Jenna knew had happened (as in was told about it, or knowing the practices of the Federation concurred about), but didn't experience watching first hand. It very much looks like something she'd tentatively considered in the very dark moments when alone, but pushed firmly into the even darker corners of her conscious and avoided contemplate at all. So the projection was a mixture between knowledge (that her mother was taken away, tortured and killed) and the nightmare of speculations how it happen, drawn from said dark corners of her mind.
"Everything in life that’s any fun, as somebody wisely observed, is either immoral, illegal or fattening." P.G. Wodehouse |
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| Angry Angel |
Posted on 06-02-2010 10:00
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 Moderator Posts: 722 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Good points, Ms_Wooster, and I think your idea about her vision is quite likely. |
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| BradPaula |
Posted on 09-02-2010 01:02
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Beta Grade Posts: 1410 Joined: 09.09.09 |
Ms Wooster wrote: ...To me Jenna is nothing less than an Alpha- and I would have believed so even without Servalan's words. She's too intelligent and has got too much class to be anything less than that. What I find very interesting is that Jenna is different than the other Alphas we see on screen... ...One last thing (for now! )- not a 100% sure about the projection of her mother's distress, but am more inclined to believe this was something Jenna knew had happened (as in was told about it, or knowing the practices of the Federation concurred about), but didn't experience watching first hand. It very much looks like something she'd tentatively considered in the very dark moments when alone, but pushed firmly into the even darker corners of her conscious and avoided contemplate at all. So the projection was a mixture between knowledge (that her mother was taken away, tortured and killed) and the nightmare of speculations how it happen, drawn from said dark corners of her mind...Jenna would seem to be an Alpha who has turned her back on the privilege and advantage that would seem to be hers by birthright. She rejected the class system and judged people for their merits (unless they happened to be a pretty alien  ) To me she wanted to make her own way, do things her own way, and be her own boss. That's a bit at odds with the way she follows Blake, unless you believe she had fallen for him. As for the illusions on Liberator, your take makes sense. It also explains Blake's vision, and how he was able to reject it. Of course it's just possible that the Feds had messed with Blake so much he was getting immune. Sum Non Expendere, Sum Non Plumbeus, Sum Non Progressus |
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| saba |
Posted on 09-02-2010 18:25
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Alpha Grade Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
BradPaula wrote: Ms Wooster wrote: ...To me Jenna is nothing less than an Alpha- and I would have believed so even without Servalan's words. She's too intelligent and has got too much class to be anything less than that. What I find very interesting is that Jenna is different than the other Alphas we see on screen... ...One last thing (for now! )- not a 100% sure about the projection of her mother's distress, but am more inclined to believe this was something Jenna knew had happened (as in was told about it, or knowing the practices of the Federation concurred about), but didn't experience watching first hand. It very much looks like something she'd tentatively considered in the very dark moments when alone, but pushed firmly into the even darker corners of her conscious and avoided contemplate at all. So the projection was a mixture between knowledge (that her mother was taken away, tortured and killed) and the nightmare of speculations how it happen, drawn from said dark corners of her mind...Jenna would seem to be an Alpha who has turned her back on the privilege and advantage that would seem to be hers by birthright. She rejected the class system and judged people for their merits (unless they happened to be a pretty alien ) To me she wanted to make her own way, do things her own way, and be her own boss. That's a bit at odds with the way she follows Blake, unless you believe she had fallen for him. As for the illusions on Liberator, your take makes sense. It also explains Blake's vision, and how he was able to reject it. Of course it's just possible that the Feds had messed with Blake so much he was getting immune. Yes - agree with both theories about Blake - both are possible. Interesting thoughts, both of you, on why Jenna doesn''t seem to fit the tradional Alpha stereotype. Mind you, as we only seem to have Alpha males [pun intended] with which to compare her, that must be a factor too. But I too get the impression that there's been a conscious rejection of the mold somewhere. I've tended to assume this came after whatever crisis propelled her into her life as an outlaw. It would be interesting to speculate on how it could have been if she'd simply rejected her upbringing and struck out on her own - leaving bemused parents behind. I suspect the scenario wouldn't quite work - hmmm. As to why Jenna followed Blake - I'd like to ask the same of all of them. I agree that it's difficult to explain in any other way than that she'd fallen for him, as you put it - or something similar. I could ask the same question of Avon and Cally and Vila - and why they all continued to do so well into series 2. But I digress. "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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| Angry Angel |
Posted on 09-02-2010 20:08
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Moderator Posts: 722 Joined: 07.09.09 |
saba wrote: Interesting thoughts, both of you, on why Jenna doesn''t seem to fit the tradional Alpha stereotype. Mind you, as we only seem to have Alpha males [pun intended] with which to compare her, that must be a factor too. What about Servalan? I wonder what grade Kasabi was? |
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| saba |
Posted on 09-02-2010 20:18
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Alpha Grade Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Angry Angel wrote: saba wrote: Interesting thoughts, both of you, on why Jenna doesn''t seem to fit the tradional Alpha stereotype. Mind you, as we only seem to have Alpha males [pun intended] with which to compare her, that must be a factor too. What about Servalan? I wonder what grade Kasabi was? I don't think that either Kasabi or Servalan would have been typical of their types (mind you, nor were Blake and Avon!). I get the impression Kasabi must have come from quite a privilaged background too - she's well spoken and doesn't crack under pressure. But the latter could just be military training. As could the very correct manner of speaking. So don't know. Servalan we know is well connected, and presumably from a privlaged background. The mind boggles at what she did to reach the top at such a young age - not to mention her lack of all round sensitivity, which presumably was the way she was, rather than all learned. "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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| BradPaula |
Posted on 09-02-2010 21:54
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Beta Grade Posts: 1410 Joined: 09.09.09 |
saba wrote: Servalan we know is well connected, and presumably from a privlaged background. The mind boggles at what she did to reach the top at such a young age - I'm reminded of a quote. Not sure who said it, but I think it may have been Alexander Wolcott referring to Dorothy Parker. It's astounding what she gets away with and still keeps her amateur standing. Sum Non Expendere, Sum Non Plumbeus, Sum Non Progressus |
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| Tyce |
Posted on 12-02-2010 03:28
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Beta Grade Posts: 891 Joined: 09.09.09 |
Still not sure of the answer to one of my musings. Is a grading like a an Alpha a birth right? A right which can't be lost? Otherwise surely Servalan would have said "was" rather than "is" an Alpha?
I used to have a life.......then I found Horizon! |
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| BradPaula |
Posted on 12-02-2010 04:07
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Beta Grade Posts: 1410 Joined: 09.09.09 |
It would seem to be a test. There certainly is a class system in the Federation, so it could be hereditary, or a combination of both. However, Vila claims to have purchased a lower grade (Delta?). While Avon disputes that Vila could have been a higher grade, he does not dispute that Vila was tested and found to be a "Fourth Grade (i.e. Delta) ignorant." Thinking on this a little further, perhaps children were born into the class of their parents, but upon reaching academy age were tested and reassigned. Alpha parents, with all the advantages of the grade, would have the most alpha children. Coser's comment (paraphrasing) "they didn't expect that from a Beta grade" sounds bitter. Perhaps he was born an alpha and tested as a beta. I wonder what the alpha establishment thought of alphas marrying lower grade citizens. Could Jenna's memory of her mother be from the day she was taken away from her beta grade parents? I've got nothing to back this up, I'm just brainstorming stream of consciousness. - Brad Edited by BradPaula on 12-02-2010 04:37 Sum Non Expendere, Sum Non Plumbeus, Sum Non Progressus |
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| saba |
Posted on 12-02-2010 10:44
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Alpha Grade Posts: 1699 Joined: 08.09.09 |
In Brave New World, you're born into a grade and conditioned accordingly. So the Alphas are equipped for a particular type of work and are happy to be Alphas, because... the Deltas are equipped for another type of work, and are happy to be Deltas because.... So I'd always assumed, no doubt influenced by that, that "Alpha" or "Delta" was something that describes your origins and is something that you are. But in just the same way as someone could buy a fake passport, Vila was able to talk about purchasing a fake grade. Taking that a stage further... again looking back to Brave New World. It would have been impossible for a Beta to become an Alpha, because their paths would simply never cross. Neither in the workplace [no doubt full of Chineese walls if indeed they encountered one another at all] nor socially. So it would make sense why the talents of someone like Coser - who doesn't seem to think like a Beta - would not be spotted. And why he was so bitter. Sorry - way off topic about Jenna. Bringing it back to her - if she was born and raised as an Alpha, then that's what she is. And that's how the Federation would continue to define her. BradPaula - following your musings - it's a completely different set up - but I agree it's possible. The question is how the Administration would spot those who needed to change streams at such an early age. And if that sort of facility was available, why they'd need to do it in the first place. "...before I can live with other folks I've got to live with myself. The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience." Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird |
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