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 The conduct on the board
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:18
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 Moderator  Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
In order to keep the "Was Blake right?" thread on topic, I've created this one. The last few posts from over there, which are relevant for this discussion are posted below. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:20
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Tarrant On TV wrote on 29-07-2010 02:14 kalinda001 wrote: Avon should have been the leader, with Cally as his second, providing the heart. Anyone who can repeatedly commit mass murder and mass suffering on large scales and think he's justified, I will never accept that man as being right about anything. I'm a big believer that ends does not justify the means. And that it's people like that who have turned out to be our Hitlers, Stalins and any number of dictators, tyrants and terrorists. Agreed. But try convoncing the "Blake was right about everything" brigade of that and you will try in vain. Avon was in many cases right, though admittedly, often for the wrong reasons. Vice versa with Blake. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:21
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Ms Wooster wrote on 29-07-2010 15:19 First of all, apologies for the off-topic post. If a discussion comes out of it, we'll start a new thread. I'd like to point out that there is a far greater number of "Blake was an interesting character" brigade than a "Blake was right about everything" brigade. And that one of the reasons the latter might have been perceived as such, is that no other character in fandom has such a strong "Blake is evil" brigade. (Forgive the short version, but listing all the negative things that's been said about him only over the last few years would take too long.) I am not a Blake fan as such and yet, even I have felt provoked by some posts so I imagine the reactions of those who really favour the character must be pretty strong! It is important to note I'm talking about a long history of that in fandom, and not of isolated posts here and there. I also find it rather ironic that the one-sided, "not having any redeeming features" approach to Blake resembles so strongly of fanaticism- something of which the character is often accused. I belong to the group of people who don't see Blake in black and white and have always been happy to discuss him in shades of grey. But one of the things I get strongly put off is language- or rather the lack of it. When Blake is being described or commented on in negative light, it is often without as much as "I think" or "It is my opinion" or "On this and that occasion". These words are not just empty words of politeness- they show respect to other people's point of view and they also show that the poster doesn't find what comes out of their mind/mouth Gospel. In my experience, this line of conduct is far more often that of the "Blake is evil” brigade than that of the "Blake can do no wrong" one. If one says "Blake is egotistical, a bully, a liar, doesn’t care about people dying.", it could easily translate to everyone who ever liked the character as "You are stupid, blind and a rather horrible person for liking this man.” If one says "I have always found him to be egotistical, a liar, and so on, because I interpret his actions thus in that episode.”, it translates as "I am aware there are other perspectives.". I am sorry for the didactical approach here, but I thought a reminder of some basics could do us all good. I am speaking both as a member of the board and as one of its moderators. I’d have waved this off if Horizon was merely some info website about a show. But it is the largest online community dedicated to Blake’s 7. Its forum is it’s forte. For the sake of my fellow Horizon members and my own good time, I thought I should bring this out in the open. And I'd very much like to hear everyone else's take on all that. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:23
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
president solvite wrote on 29-07-2010 15:32 In my opinion the 'Blake is always right Brigade' is one of those theoretical units on paper. A bit like those helocopters promised to our forces in Afghanistan. The 'Avon can do no wrong army' is another matter..  [But getting back on topic.. to the question, I think the answer is a cautious yes.. With some qualifications, Blake made some mistakes sure, and he certainly didn't tar all Federation personel with the same brush. See Killer.. He was more than happy to work with Bellfriar and others. He also sensibly ensured quarantine was maintained to avoid needless death, despite other protestations.] |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:24
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
kalinda001 wrote on 29-07-2010 19:32 I'm definitely not in the "Avon can do no wrong" camp as anyone who reads my posts will realize. I do recognize he did sometimes do bad things, which I have repeatedly stated. I think he was a flawed hero, which makes him an interesting character for me. I just think he was a far better man than Blake was. Like I said before, I just can't accept someone who thinks the ends justifies the means as many times that Blake seems to, even if it meant mass murder of innocents. Morally, I just can't accept a person like him. If that makes me wrong to not like Blake then c'est la vie. I'd rather be wrong for that reason. There was one time Avon was willing to risk killing many people in order to get Servalan. And that was not one of his sterling moments. I don't remember any other ones. But for me, it was a risk, not a certainty that many people would get killed. Blake on the other hand commits certain mass murder on a regular basis. People like Bellfriar...those are the kinds of people he blew up on those bases. Because Blake never targetted purely military installations with mainly soldiers. He targetted places that required lots of technicians and other non-military personnel. Just like in Search. So to be so nice to work with Bellfriar this one time...someone who does not seem evil. Makes me wonder how many people like that that Blake killed already. I usually try to qualify what I say with "I think...", "For me personally", "I will never accept", "I'm a big believer that", I will be careful to make sure I continue doing this. But it does irritate me that there seems to be so much bashing of Avon, but it seems to be an acceptable past time. Given any circumstance, inevitably what I read is the most negative interpretation of what Avon does rather, than recognition that there are other non-negative ways of interpreting his behavior that is also likely from what we all see. Maybe it's just what I've been reading and I've missed the positive ones. That is what I try to do, give Avon a positive spin to counter all the negative ones that I've been reading. When I see people say that Blake was flawed....well, if he was, then criticism on the same level as is levelled as at Avon should also be acceptable. Shouldn't it? |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:25
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
president solvite wrote on 29-07-2010 20:17 If there is any Avon bashing it certainly isnt on Horizon. Have you compared the Blake and Avon threads lately? Obviously I cannot speak for the other forums elsewhere on the web. This board enjoys a complete range of views from the extremes to holistic moderates. Therefore to attempt any redress any balance is mistaken especially when it threatens to knock a thread off topic. As OP and Moderator I would like to keep this and other threads on topic. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:27
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
kalinda001 wrote on 29-07-2010 20:55 president solvite wrote: If there is any Avon bashing it certainly isnt on Horizon. Have you compared the Blake and Avon threads lately? Obviously I cannot speak for the other forums elsewhere on the web. This board enjoys a complete range of views from the extremes to holistic moderates. Therefore to attempt any redress any balance is mistaken especially when it threatens to knock a thread off topic. As OP and Moderator I would like to keep this and other threads on topic. "Avon did also give people a choice when he decided to leave the Liberator, unfortunately it was with the point of the gun, or the threat of death that he used to get his way." No Avon bashing...that makes it sound like not only he did it more than once, Avon always got his way using death threats and pointing a gun at people. We could always compare canon facts. Because, when I tried to count them, Avon used far fewer threats, intimidation, pointing of guns and violence than Blake did, or even Tarrant. But I guess it could be the way we both count them. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:28
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Ms Wooster wrote on 29-07-2010 22:11 kalinda001 wrote: Like I said before, I just can't accept someone who thinks the ends justifies the means as many times that Blake seems to, even if it meant mass murder of innocents. Morally, I just can't accept a person like him. If that makes me wrong to not like Blake then c'est la vie. I'd rather be wrong for that reason. I don't think liking or not liking anyone can be right or wrong. This would be passing a judgement and I don't believe members are doing that to other members here. And if that has ever happened, apologies to the recipients. We're doing what we can to moderate the Forum to the best of our abilites. But it does irritate me that there seems to be so much bashing of Avon, but it seems to be an acceptable past time. Your comment implies there are a number of posts by any number of people, who are being exceedingly negative about Avon on regular basis. I don't think that's accurate nor I think it's a fair comment to a community which by and large isn't intense. And it is most certainly not an anger/hate-driven community. "Bashing" is defined as "a harsh, gratuitous, prejudicial attack on a person, group or subject" by Wikipedia- any other definition I've found is in the same vein. I don't think that's ever happened to Avon over here, but I encourage anyone to speak up if they'd felt differently. Examples- and a number of them too, would be appreciated. It's important to stress that this isn't about who likes Blake, Avon or any other character. It is about the tone of the community. Edited by Ms Wooster on 30-07-2010 09:29 |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 09:30
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Tarrant On TV wrote on 29-07-2010 22:57 Can I just point out that while I don't feel there is any excessive Avon bashing on Horizon, I don't think it a coincidence that many of the people who tend to see Blake in a somewhat negative light tend nowadays to steer clear of discussions such as this one. Character bashing does not especially bother me given as the characters in question are fictitious. Obviously bashing of the actors and/or writers is a different matter. |
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| Ms Wooster |
Posted on 30-07-2010 10:04
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Moderator Posts: 1145 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Tarrant On TV wrote: Can I just point out that while I don't feel there is any excessive Avon bashing on Horizon, I don't think it a coincidence that many of the people who tend to see Blake in a somewhat negative light tend nowadays to steer clear of discussions such as this one. I acknowledge that and have thought about why that is. One thing I am certain about is that you are in the minority- there simply aren't many fans, who see Blake in a "somewhat negative light". If fans see Blake in negative light, there is hardly ever anything moderate about it! No one else has got such downright black posts as Blake. I can quote at least five such posts straight away. And indeed this has been going on for years. I've read the old NLs and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the arguments there! They were the exact replica of the arguments we had back in 2006-2007 on the old Horizon board and to a smaller degree in more recent years. So I've come to the conclusion that it's like a reflex- Blake supporters spring to action whenever they hear negative things about him, because they expect a version of Blake, which wouldn't invite for a discussion. It would be the closest to gratuitous posting there is. In other words it would be about getting it off one's chest rather than “Let’s talk about it”. As a result two things happen: avid (and occasionally even non avid) Blake fans back the other corner strongly, which is a rather natural reaction- and which could also kill discussion, because someone like you feels put off and just drops it; and moderators have to step in. In my experience it is also very frequent that fans, who dislike/hate Blake so strongly, in the majority feel equally strongly/love Avon. So since this isn't the Avon website nor it is the website of a program called Avon's 7, there is an ill feeling amongst some fans that they better stay out of discussions here, because they're not free to say whatever they want. When in fact there is little recognition on their part this is a large community where there'll be differences of opinions. Here is a quote from the favourite main character thread: Avon, of course. I love it that he's so far ahead the others need a telescope to see him. And Vila second, naturally, but he's not even half of Avon and Blake? Blake who? It is one thing to be happy for your favourite character and another to sound dismissive of other characters. Where does that leave Jenna fans then? This sort of start of a post isn’t likely to provoke any other reaction in me aside from feeling offended. As I am sure I’m not the only one. I am sorry for being so blunt, but I don't think I'm talking about anything people haven't noticed already. I’m just airing skeletons out from the closet. Having said all that, I understand your frustration and I remember well a discussion where you expressed it. All I could promise in my role as a moderator is to be more encouraging of constructive debates in the shades of grey. Sorry for the long post. I wish I was a lady of a few words like Jenna.  Other people's input is most welcome, I would like us all to discuss this and get things better as much as we can.P.S. Can I just say that I personally love it when there are fans of Avon over here, who appreciate the entire program and equally fans, who see Blake in somewhat negative light. I am tired of extremes. |
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| Lurena |
Posted on 30-07-2010 10:21
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 Alpha Grade  Posts: 1626 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Thank you for setting this thread up, Ms Wooster. Bashing characters? Bashing the Blake character, bashing the Avon character? Where did that came from? What I read here gives me a terrible fright. I have been away for only nine days and came back to find the tone on the forum has changed. I don't know what happened in the past when I wasn't a forum member yet. I really can't imagine people like to hurt other one's feelings and to fight over the Blakes 7 show's characters or their behavior. Why should one enjoy that? To what profit? We have such a precious and exclusive show to remember. When I joined the forum I was enchanted by it's kindness and it really took away my shyness. Please keep good discussions going in a polite manner. I really enjoy them that way. And please do not include me in a pro-and anti ... character camp. I have a reason for a strong preference for Avon, but Blake is also dear to me as I also like the other B7 characters. .....I want to tell, but I can't.....  ...I promised.... |
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| clareblues1 |
Posted on 30-07-2010 13:29
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 Beta Grade  Posts: 1277 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Here here Ms Wooster and Lurena. I must confess that I've not been keeping up with the discussions mentioned here, but it certainly concerns me greatly that instances of differing opinions have 'raised passions' shall we say. We've all got our favourite characters and personal reasons for those choices and opinions on storylines etc etc. However this does need to be responded to with respect for the other person's viewpoint, even if you disagree with it. "The river tells no lies, though standing on the shore, the dishonest man still hears them" Oma Desala |
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| manicmama |
Posted on 30-07-2010 14:01
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Gamma Grade Posts: 276 Joined: 23.09.09 |
Like Clareblues, I haven't been keeping up with this discussion, and I'm really surprised at the tone it's taken! Many of us have a favourite character, mine is Avon, no secret there, and I'm fairly certain that Clareblues might like Tarrant just a weeny bit! However, despite the obvious bias of some of us towards some of the characters, I've never felt that this was a site open to "bashing". It's always struck me how interesting it is to read so many well expressed differences of opinion which don't descend to the level of a slanging match. It is a shame if some of us feel we can't join a discussion for fear of being harangued, generally if I don't join in it's because I feel I have nothing interesting to say on that particular topic. As an Avon fan, I don't take exception to people who describe his character as psychotic, it's just a different point of view, although one I don't necessarily agree with. This site has in my experience, been a good place to see other's points of view, and maybe re-watch the episodes with those comments in mind. It's opened a whole new level of understanding for me, and greatly increased my enjoyment of one of my favourite shows. Long may it continue! Think of it as evolution in action. |
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| Leyos |
Posted on 30-07-2010 16:44
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 Beta Grade Posts: 896 Joined: 21.04.10 |
I've been following the discussions over the past couple of days and I've been surprised that some people have felt the need to express themselves so aggressively. There are ways of arguing a point and putting across your opinion without resorting to 'character bashing'. Besides, if there's one thing that I think we all agree on it's that there is no black and white in B7, everything is shades of grey. Anyone suggesting that any character is entirely bad (or entirely good, for that matter) really hasn't been paying attention. |
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| Henry Eggleton |
Posted on 30-07-2010 18:03
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 Gamma Grade Posts: 277 Joined: 08.09.09 |
I have always said I see Blake as a complex and interesting character 'because he isn't the white hat many wish him to be'. He is someone who (IMO) starts out prior to his first brainwashing as a dedicated opponent of the Federation who wanted to free the people of Earth and the outer colonies. However afterward (as Foster said) there wasn't much of that Blake left. We had someone who was hurt and angry and had an image as a freedom fighter to live up too. Gradually as the series progressed he began to take more and more risks with other people’s lives as well as his own. I also have difficulty accepting his moral claim to the Liberator over Jenna and Avon's claim, his stating that they were free to leave when they wished was somewhat dictatorial (I don't care that we all found the ship I'm using it for the good of all so lump it attitude) Then when we get to Breakdown he is a fall blown fanatic unable to pull back from his objective no matter how deadly it becomes. Then we have Star One, he claims to have the interests of the downtrodden masses, yet there has been no popular uprising on his behalf so how can he think he has the right to kill many many of them to prove 'he was right'. I'm not saying the Federation was right but they were not claiming the moral high ground that Blake was, and that requires a higher level of morality. By the time we reach Blake he has almost changed beyond recognition, even in series 2 he wouldn't have forced Vila or Avon to jump through such hoops to prove 'their' loyalty. Hadn't he seen the rewards offered for their head by the Federation? |
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| Windfola |
Posted on 30-07-2010 18:31
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 Gamma Grade Posts: 186 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Phew. I have only just seen this after an absence of two or three days. I am not going to wade in on my preferences, which are well known to most already. But, it's worth just thinking about what it means to have one character as your favourite or another as your bete noir. I might love a character because he is sexy, or because he is complex, or interesting, or badly behaved, or for many other reasons, or all of them at once. This doesn't mean I think he can do no wrong. The same goes for a character I dislike. I might find him tedious, unfunny, he might not be my type or I might think he is just plain annoying. This does not mean he can do no right. I delight in being shallow about B7 because real life is complicated enough without adding more intensity and seriousness. Oh just one thing I should mention. There is absolutely No evidence that Avon suffered from psychosis. I do not say he wasn't mentally disordered, but psychotic no. That is not just my opinion - it is based on sound clinical criteria.
 Well now, all you had to do was ask. |
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| president solvite |
Posted on 31-07-2010 10:04
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 Moderator Posts: 1637 Joined: 07.09.09 |
Tarrant On TV wrote on 29-07-2010 22:57 Can I just point out that while I don't feel there is any excessive Avon bashing on Horizon, I don't think it a coincidence that many of the people who tend to see Blake in a somewhat negative light tend nowadays to steer clear of discussions such as this one. Likewise the same can be said for some persons viewing Blake in a positive light. As Moderators we strived to try and keep some kind of balance. We want everyone to have their say, but we have to strike a balance between that and 'brow beating' driving the same point repeatedly or excessive wandering off the topic. The positive Blake points are often made in response to the negative comments (indeed I think thats when the said thread got revived) so I would argue its a case of balance. The is a fairly loosely moderated community as our record demonstrates which lets all voices be heard. Some great posts here, and I am glad that Ms Wooster, created this thread to let us all state our cases. Behold your God, Neil!!  |
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| manicmama |
Posted on 01-08-2010 01:08
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Gamma Grade Posts: 276 Joined: 23.09.09 |
[b]Windfola wrote:[/b Oh just one thing I should mention. There is absolutely No evidence that Avon suffered from psychosis. I do not say he wasn't mentally disordered, but psychotic no. That is not just my opinion - it is based on sound clinical criteria. I agree with the majority of your comments in your post Windfola - but I have to express my feeling about this last one. This is the kind of thing that makes it so difficult for some of us to join the discussions. Many of the members on this board are obviously highly educated and specialists in their field, enough so to be able to make the above comment. The rest of us are not so qualified, and perhaps use the definition "psychotic" in a far looser manner than it should be. It must be intensely irritating for someone who knows the real definition, to see the word "psychotic" used so often in the popular press, generally to describe someone who has acted in an irrational, possibly frightening, way in which their own safety doesn't seem to matter. But this will be the view that most of us are familiar with, and undoubtedly there are times when Avon in particular could be seen as having behaved in this manner. It is very interesting for me to see the comments posted by those better qualified to speak on these subjects, however, when someone else's remark is dismissed out of hand as having no basis in fact, it makes us feel a little...squashed? Certainly if you are possessed of the correct information, then please share it with the rest of us, I don't mean to imply otherwise. This is purely my own opinion, and I apologise in advance if it offends anyone. Think of it as evolution in action. |
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| Windfola |
Posted on 01-08-2010 11:18
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Gamma Grade Posts: 186 Joined: 08.09.09 |
Sorry if I made you feel put down, Manicmama. That was far from my intention. Part of the problem is that the term 'psychotic' is liberally used throughout B7 and there is not one single use that is correct. So no wonder it confuses people. One of my soapboxes in real life is to educate people about mental disorders to try to inform the public and it tends to make me trigger happy when it comes to wading in on the subject. But if you look on the Avon thread you'll see that I have been persuaded to finish my article on B7 and mental illness. Well now, all you had to do was ask. |
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| manicmama |
Posted on 01-08-2010 17:02
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Gamma Grade Posts: 276 Joined: 23.09.09 |
Windfola wrote: Sorry if I made you feel put down, Manicmama. That was far from my intention. Part of the problem is that the term 'psychotic' is liberally used throughout B7 and there is not one single use that is correct. So no wonder it confuses people. One of my soapboxes in real life is to educate people about mental disorders to try to inform the public and it tends to make me trigger happy when it comes to wading in on the subject. But if you look on the Avon thread you'll see that I have been persuaded to finish my article on B7 and mental illness. No apology was necessary, but thank you, Windfola. I very much enjoy reading the comments of other members, it often gives me insights I wouldn't have thought of for myself, and thereby increases my enjoyment of B7. Mental illness to most people is a scary subject, and one we'd prefer to hide under the carpet, so to speak, so I can understand your need as a specialist, to "soapbox" the issue. I wish you luck with that, but unless you get more help from the health community and the politicians, it's going to be a tough job! Think of it as evolution in action. |
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