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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
14% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

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7% [7 Votes]

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Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [14 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

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Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 97
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Kerr Avon
Ellen York
JustBrad wrote:

@Peladon. Spot on. I always felt Blake was afraid of failure, of failing, and being the only survivor, a modified form of Survivor's Guilt. It had happened before. How would he react if it happened again? Maybe we find out in Blake.

Re Avon: I think you are right, but I'm not sure what Avon is afraid of.
Death? Probably not.


I agree about both the fear and the guilt. Blake's line in Star One about needing to be right seems to me more about guilt than about ego. And I suspect that Avon has some survivor guilt about Anna (hence the melodramatic gesture in Rumors). As for Avon's fear, I would say needing people and/or being needed. He doesn't want to be in the position of being hurt again, or failing someone who is counting on him and his solution was to be alone (he wants to be so rich nobody can touch him). Then he got pulled into a group and ended up caring more than he was willing to admit. Humans are social creatures, even us introverts.
 
Obsidian
peladon wrote:

My overwhelming first impression of Avon was of a very frightened man doing his best not to seem it. My second was that Blake was equally terrified but for a different reason. Avon has no choice whilst the others support Blake and Blake has no choice while they do either.

Reams of analysis later I still hold to those views. Both men learn to adapt and Avon certainly seems to transcend his fears but the memory of it must remain.

Also, leaders are just that and both Blake and Avon act differently when taking that role. Hence both of them can be seen from some perspectives to be dictatorial in some situations.

In S4 Avon goes one step further and beciomes a commander, a different role again.


@peladon, I totally agree. Psychoanalysing both characters I see fear writ large, with both presenting classic responses. Blake's somewhat bombastic nature and the increased fierceness of Avon's treatment of his colleagues I would interpret as individuals freaked out with fear. What I always wonder though, is how much the various writers, or even Terry Nation himself originally, saw and actively developed these aspects as part of the characters of each, or is it just happenstance? Avon, by Season D, appears completely driven and almost an automaton. Does anyone have records of interviews with producers/directors/writers which suggest that that's where they wanted to take the character?
Don't philosophise at me you electronic moron!GrinFrown
 
http://www.seraglio-design.com
peladon
Obsidian wrote:


@peladon, I totally agree. Psychoanalysing both characters I see fear writ large, with both presenting classic responses. Blake's somewhat bombastic nature and the increased fierceness of Avon's treatment of his colleagues I would interpret as individuals freaked out with fear. What I always wonder though, is how much the various writers, or even Terry Nation himself originally, saw and actively developed these aspects as part of the characters of each, or is it just happenstance? Avon, by Season D, appears completely driven and almost an automaton. Does anyone have records of interviews with producers/directors/writers which suggest that that's where they wanted to take the character?


I dont think that I'd agree that Avon is particularly harsh with his colleages, prior to S4, except when in a panic as he is a couple of times in S1. Other than that he seems pretty balanced, though I think he is bit exasperated a few times, and I tend to see him as having a very acerbic sense of humour.

In terms of the fear element I'd see both of them as going through the same shock as a soldier coming out of training and new to the battlefield, and I think they both go through a process of adapation in the first series. Avon seems to have his fear under control by the end of series 1, as does Blake, though possibly not quite so well. I've always found it amusing that its the two female leads who are the seasoned combatants and show no sign of the panic the two men go through. Gan of course is mediated via his limiter and Vila is presumably familiar with the equally violent and dengerous world of crime, but for Avon and Blake the shock must be very great.

Did the writers know - well perhaps I'm not really the person to comment. I have great respect for TN, who had the reputation of being able to sketch complex characters in a few strokes and get an audience to identify with them even before B7 and in his case the portrayal is so consistent I think he may well have done so. The other writers... well their input was so spasmodic that perhaps it would be too much to expect but I generally find their characters to be less developed and very much of their era, it shows more in their OCs where they dont have a developed character to work with. My views on S4 are no secret and I dont consider the people shown in it to be the original characters at all, and the ones replacing them I find so 2D and comic book as to be without any real world characteristics. However automaton would perhaps describe it quite well.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
Avon is the sort of character - antisocial, cynical and sarcastic - who easily becomes a fan favourite. He is portrayed with an unusual amount of realism, though. His misanthropy isn't played to be cute - he really doesn't get along with other people.

As his power aboard Liberator grows, he begins to adopts the personality of being a ruthless outlaw. He swaps the frumpy technician overalls for leather and studs, he shoots people and kisses beautiful women whether they like it or not.

But at the end of the day, Avon can't really make it as a rebel hero. It's hard to be Han Solo when you're so miserable and glum.

He's just as odd as Blake the Rebel Engineer. Avon the Gunslinger I.T. Technician is a poseur amongst bastards, who becomes the biggest bastard through sheer force of recognition that being a bastard is the only game in town. He promptly implodes from the pressure - alone and desperate.

Cue Cheery, Season D Credits.
 
peladon
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

Avon is the sort of character - antisocial, cynical and sarcastic - who easily becomes a fan favourite. He is portrayed with an unusual amount of realism, though. His misanthropy isn't played to be cute - he really doesn't get along with other people.

As his power aboard Liberator grows, he begins to adopts the personality of being a ruthless outlaw. He swaps the frumpy technician overalls for leather and studs, he shoots people and kisses beautiful women whether they like it or not.

But at the end of the day, Avon can't really make it as a rebel hero. It's hard to be Han Solo when you're so miserable and glum.

He's just as odd as Blake the Rebel Engineer. Avon the Gunslinger I.T. Technician is a poseur amongst bastards, who becomes the biggest bastard through sheer force of recognition that being a bastard is the only game in town. He promptly implodes from the pressure - alone and desperate.

Cue Cheery, Season D Credits.


I don't think I'd agree with much of that. Theres no real sign that hes antisocial, cynical yes, and from a more individualistic mind set than Blake, but within the normal distribution for an intelligent person, particularly an apolitical one. Nor is there any sign that he doesn't get along with other people in appropraite circumstances, he goes head to head with Blake and views Gan and Vila as fair game after they snipe at him early in S1, but the female characters and males who arent trying to get him killed he seems OK with. Nor is he without empathy when its appropraite for his context, he just doesnt parade concern or emotion.

Dont see any sign of ruthless outlaw either, in S3 its Tarrant who tends toward piracy not Avon. As for the leather - well is it thats a 20th century perception, yes his clothes change but then why would he dress as a dome dweller when he isnt that any more. All of the characters dress changes and they all wear something that looks like leather. As for his S4 garb, the really awful stuff is not his choice as its provided by Dorian. My view of S4 Avon can be read elsewhere but lets just say he isnt the real deal. Prior to that he only kisses beautiful women to distract them or because they want to distract him - seems fair enough in the relevant situations. Shooting people goes with war unfortunately, not doing so being a poor survival tactic in a shoot out.

He has both humour and enjoyment even given the desperate nature of their existence so I dont see miserable or glum as being justified.

He shows odd skills/knowldge from the very beginning but much of the consistant change (S!-2) are reasonable developments given the world and lifestyle he is thrown in to. S4 Avon is more often than not a histrionic prat, surrounded by childish subordinates, but no more a bastard than any quasi military commander trapped in his situation. Tough situations require tough decisions after all.
 
Sopron
With Peladon here. S1-3 Avon is an intelligent man trying to adapt to circumstances apparently way out of anyone's comfort zone while keeping his ego (in the Freudian sense) intact. He does appear to display odd skills/knowledge for a predominantly law-abiding Alpha but I hold several theories which would explain this and there must be dozens more explored in the various fanfics I've read. He has a very sardonic sense of humour, as does Han Solo, as I recall, which is sometimes interpreted as harshness by others of the crew, and purports a fixated sense of self-preservation which is belied by almost every action until S4 which was about the time when I gave up on the original showing way back when...

As for not making it as a rebel hero, I don't think that was ever in the character as envisaged by TN nor Mr D! The gunslinger IT Tech is a horrible mutation relevant only to the appalling S4 (which I have now watched due to the recent acquisition of box-sets)

Travisina's article is an excellent read in this respect.
 
Travisina
Sopron wrote:


Travisina's article is an excellent read in this respect.


Kind of you to say so, but I cannot take the credit!
This excellent article was written by our very own Website Mutoid, and can be found here: http://www.blakes...icle_id=16
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Sopron
Oops! My apologies to both Travisina and Website Mutoid for the error, I'm brand new to this and still getting the hang of who's who. My bad...
 
JustBrad
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

Avon is the sort of character - antisocial, cynical and sarcastic - who easily becomes a fan favourite.
Cue Cheery, Season D Credits.


Particularly when played bay an actor of Mr Darrow's talents. The term Anti Hero is bandied about a lot these days, but I don't think it applies to Avon.
 
Travisina
Sopron wrote:

Oops! My apologies to both Travisina and Website Mutoid for the error, I'm brand new to this and still getting the hang of who's who. My bad...


That's fine, don't worry about it Wink
I do write quite a lot of stuff for the site, as well as uploading things written by others, so it was an easy mistake to make!
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Spaceresearcher
Let's face it, Avon was really a mean sadistic self centered megalomaniac who would kill anyone to free himself of having to talk with anyone. Everyone was simply a means to an end for him.

Or was that Federation mind control at work all along?? Will we ever really know Avon?
 
JustBrad
Unfortunately I don't think Avon can be summarized so easily. He is a very complex character that undergoes many changes throughout the series. And 'sadistic' and 'megalomaniac' are so far off that I can only assume you are making a bad joke or trying to provoke a reaction. Not sure either is appropriate to this thread or likely to be appreciated by your fellow Horizon members despite the disclaimer at the end of your post.
Edited by JustBrad on 18 February 2014 05:08:22
 
Spaceresearcher
JustBrad wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think Avon can be summarized so easily. He is a very complex character that undergoes many changes throughout the series. And 'sadistic' and 'megalomaniac' are so far off that I can only assume you are making a bad joke or trying to provoke a reaction. Not sure either is appropriate to this thread or likely to be appreciated by your fellow Horizon members despite the disclaimer at the end of your post.


Sorry if anything hits a nerve, but Avon does kill Blake in cold blood at the end and smiles. Perhaps his character is complex through the series but at the end, it certainly isn't. Killing Blake was certainly not appreciated but it's something we have to admit as it happened, just like Avons actions. It is no joke, no one was laughing at the end of the episode 'Blake' but Avon. This is a discussion thread and surely the final points must reflect something on Avon's character. Perhaps I should have noted which aspect of the story I was referring to when declaring this statement. That is the end of Season 4, episode Blake.

Your implication that other Horizon members would not appreciate the statement is to imply that other Horizon members only wish to say 'nice' things about Avon. Surely even you must agree that Avon and nice do not really go hand in hand to say the least. I'd like to believe that the final incident was the result of Federation mind control, but that's just pure speculation, agreed? Perhaps he just went temporarily insane/mad etc with the realisation of what he'd done.

Also please let it be known that Avon is one of my favourite characters warts and all and I'm not afraid to talk about his dark side along with his good side. It's half the enjoyment of delving into discussions on a character. Everyone has there point of view. As to what everyone finds to be the truth, well that is another matter entirely. I'd argue that daring to discuss Avon's bad points as well as his good points, shows true appreciation for the character. Terry Nation himself declared Blakes 7, 'The Dirty Dozen in space'. Avon isn't supposed to be a 'nice' character, he's an anti-hero.

Finally there have been interviews where Paul Darrow himself has used the word 'megalomaniac' on occasion. Not only that, it's backed up by Avon's ego throughout the show. He's not to the point of Travis though. Perhaps not even Avon can maintain a calm cool collected resolve and logical mind in the face of everything life throws at him. After all he's only human. His dark side, is what makes him so attractive. He's not afraid of being himself, ever.
 
peladon
Spaceresearcher wrote:

[quote][url=http://www.blakes7online.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=34&pid=4467#post_4467]

Sorry if anything hits a nerve, but Avon does kill Blake in cold blood at the end and smiles. Perhaps his character is complex through the series but at the end, it certainly isn't. Killing Blake was certainly not appreciated but it's something we have to admit as it happened, just like Avons actions. It is no joke, no one was laughing at the end of the episode 'Blake' but Avon. This is a discussion thread and surely the final points must reflect something on Avon's character. Perhaps I should have noted which aspect of the story I was referring to when declaring this statement. That is the end of Season 4, episode Blake.

Your implication that other Horizon members would not appreciate the statement is to imply that other Horizon members only wish to say 'nice' things about Avon. Surely even you must agree that Avon and nice do not really go hand in hand to say the least. I'd like to believe that the final incident was the result of Federation mind control, but that's just pure speculation, agreed? Perhaps he just went temporarily insane/mad etc with the realisation of what he'd done.

Also please let it be known that Avon is one of my favourite characters warts and all and I'm not afraid to talk about his dark side along with his good side. It's half the enjoyment of delving into discussions on a character. Everyone has there point of view. As to what everyone finds to be the truth, well that is another matter entirely. I'd argue that daring to discuss Avon's bad points as well as his good points, shows true appreciation for the character. Terry Nation himself declared Blakes 7, 'The Dirty Dozen in space'. Avon isn't supposed to be a 'nice' character, he's an anti-hero.

Finally there have been interviews where Paul Darrow himself has used the word 'megalomaniac' on occasion. Not only that, it's backed up by Avon's ego throughout the show. He's not to the point of Travis though. Perhaps not even Avon can maintain a calm cool collected resolve and logical mind in the face of everything life throws at him. After all he's only human. His dark side, is what makes him so attractive. He's not afraid of being himself, ever.


is there a way of turning this awful and unusable blue background off when putting posts together? Apologies upfront for the errors resulting from poor differentiation of characters...

So...

Blake as an episode makes little sense, and one reason it doesnt is that at the end Avon is not a man 'in cold blood'. He is clearly intended to be seen as labouring under severe emotion and beyond normal restraint despite the fact that he is perfectly in control up to that point and is going into a situation that he must have planned for as an eventuality.(OOC but there you go, canon anyway) The smile is after Blake is dead and at the prospect of his own imminent death not Blake's, its got a very grim edge and could be seen as gallows humour at the end he had predicted in Terminal.

I think Brad's comment was more directed at the possibility it was a fishing post, I do not see it as such but some less robust forum members might (he's right Ive seen it)

I'd not describe Avon as 'nice' but nor is he nasty. The simple and uncomfortable truth is that extraordinary people are rarely 'nice' in the current accepted use of the term. I suspect that he would not have been seen as negatively when the series was first broadcast as some would see him in todays 'soapy' world. The same is also true of Blake.

Avon's 'bad' points are predictable for someone of his type, being a tendancy not to suffer fools quietly, a deplorably clear and cynical view of human nature and a great deal of self confidence that he doesnt bother to hide, which can be seen as arrogance/ego tripping. I also that think a lot of his confidence in the early series is a front though to get him through a pretty awful situation, however play at confidence and courage long enough it can become as good as the real thing, and so can the reverse.

As for meglomania, well I dont see any real sign of it in the action or words on screen. I'd not necessarly say that PDs view is the one to take as canon, who he wanted to be portraying is not necessarily the character that was writtne.
 
kscherry2000
I don't think Avon was a disaster, I do think he was not accustomed to it since he liked keeping to himself. He actually started to hate the Federation as a whole and wanted it gone, so he turned to Blake's 'rabble rousing' as a means to get rid of it. He wanted to create an anti Federal at the end and when Zucan was not the right choice, he went to find Blake.
"He will lead them...to the last drop of THEIR blood. Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you need is someone rational to put it to proper use."


trevor travis wrote:

Avon in charge "is a complete disaster", as you say PS. He makes Blake look like a role model leader, and considering how bad Blake was as a leader, that takes some doing.

It is one of the ironies of B7 that Avon is also banging on about being in charge, but once that happens 1) he doesn't really want to do it 2) he proves to be a useless leader.

I guess he's a bit unlucky at times e.g. he has a good idea in "Warlord" but it all falls to pieces, but generally most of the cock-ups of latter episodes (e.g. the destruction of the Liberator and Zen) can be firmly placed at Avon's door.

It makes fascinating television to see Avon placed through the wringer, and that's one reason I love Season D. The rest of the crew are depending more-and-more on him as a leader, at a time a highly stressed out Avon (guilt over the events of "Terminal"? ) is becoming less-and-less suitable to be one, until the inevitable car crash occurs.
 
Spaceresearcher
kscherry2000 wrote:

I don't think Avon was a disaster, I do think he was not accustomed to it since he liked keeping to himself. He actually started to hate the Federation as a whole and wanted it gone, so he turned to Blake's 'rabble rousing' as a means to get rid of it. He wanted to create an anti Federal at the end and when Zucan was not the right choice, he went to find Blake.
"He will lead them...to the last drop of THEIR blood. Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you need is someone rational to put it to proper use."


trevor travis wrote:

Avon in charge "is a complete disaster", as you say PS. He makes Blake look like a role model leader, and considering how bad Blake was as a leader, that takes some doing.

It is one of the ironies of B7 that Avon is also banging on about being in charge, but once that happens 1) he doesn't really want to do it 2) he proves to be a useless leader.

I guess he's a bit unlucky at times e.g. he has a good idea in "Warlord" but it all falls to pieces, but generally most of the cock-ups of latter episodes (e.g. the destruction of the Liberator and Zen) can be firmly placed at Avon's door.

It makes fascinating television to see Avon placed through the wringer, and that's one reason I love Season D. The rest of the crew are depending more-and-more on him as a leader, at a time a highly stressed out Avon (guilt over the events of "Terminal"? ) is becoming less-and-less suitable to be one, until the inevitable car crash occurs.


I agree with TT on this one. The only true leader in the series was Blake. Even Blake had his off moments, but his ability to lead is unquestionable. Avon on the other hand is a loner. He's more accustomed to working on his own and being away from people, than the reverse. He's also introverted. While it may not seem like it, Vila actually allows Avon to realise something which previously he hadn't considered. That is making the mistake of taking people at face value. Avon makes Vila out to be a fool, however he does learn, that Vila is not the fool he takes him for. In fact he's rather crafty, but Avon would never admit it.
 
magnificat
Two thirds of the way through season 3 I think Avon is a better leader than Blake in some ways - more constructive and less bossy. I haven't seen season 4.

Don't understand the idea that Avon only cared about himself. He went far out of his way for others in episodes like Mission to Destiny and Deliverance, where he helped strangers.
 
meegat39
magnificat wrote:

Two thirds of the way through season 3 I think Avon is a better leader than Blake in some ways - more constructive and less bossy. I haven't seen season 4.

Don't understand the idea that Avon only cared about himself. He went far out of his way for others in episodes like Mission to Destiny and Deliverance, where he helped strangers.


Totally agree Magnificat!
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Sopron
magnificat wrote:

Two thirds of the way through season 3 I think Avon is a better leader than Blake in some ways - more constructive and less bossy.

Don't understand the idea that Avon only cared about himself. He went far out of his way for others in episodes like Mission to Destiny and Deliverance, where he helped strangers.


Certainly S3/Colin(?) Avon is more a leader by consensus, a far cry from Blake's avoidance of 'meaningful discussion' when haring off on his latest whim. This is, in my opinion, precisely because he recognises that he lacks Blake's rabble-rousing charisma and also has no desire to be held responsible by the others when things go wrong, as he held Blake responsible. If he's involved them in the decision, or allowed them to take the decision among themselves, they can hardly blame him. It's another aspect of "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." In Avon's mind he 'cares enough to treat the crew as grown-ups who can make their own bad decisions, if that's what they choose, as long as they don't endanger him or 'his' ship. By the same token, they should allow him to follow his own path. Trouble is, he does care and, by extension, cannot avoid blaming himself, especially for the loss of the Liberator and Cally (another occasion for a 'smile' that is, plainly, not because he's a heartless bastard but because it's that or give up and cry, and Avon doesn't cry...)

As regards his 'altruism'; in MtD, although we and he can see that he's been manoeuvered into staying by Blake & Cally, he gives himself a get-out clause with his line about curiosity. In Deliverance, he returns for Jenna because she's the pilot he needs for 'his' ship and going against the rest of the crew is more trouble than he can handle alone. On Cephlon, he is in the astonishing position of being ego-bombed by Meegat's adoration and realising that achieving what she wants is well within his capabilities, thus retaining her as a useful ally. {Sorry, meegat39!} I'm sure there are many introverts in the world who would empathise with and envy his position. After all, it's one thing being regarded as a superhero/god, but to find you genuinely possess that superpower is a pretty rare situation. Wink
 
magnificat
Sopron wrote:

magnificat wrote:

Two thirds of the way through season 3 I think Avon is a better leader than Blake in some ways - more constructive and less bossy.

Don't understand the idea that Avon only cared about himself. He went far out of his way for others in episodes like Mission to Destiny and Deliverance, where he helped strangers.


Certainly S3/Colin(?) Avon is more a leader by consensus, a far cry from Blake's avoidance of 'meaningful discussion' when haring off on his latest whim. This is, in my opinion, precisely because he recognises that he lacks Blake's rabble-rousing charisma and also has no desire to be held responsible by the others when things go wrong, as he held Blake responsible. If he's involved them in the decision, or allowed them to take the decision among themselves, they can hardly blame him. It's another aspect of "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." In Avon's mind he 'cares enough to treat the crew as grown-ups who can make their own bad decisions, if that's what they choose, as long as they don't endanger him or 'his' ship. By the same token, they should allow him to follow his own path. Trouble is, he does care and, by extension, cannot avoid blaming himself, especially for the loss of the Liberator and Cally (another occasion for a 'smile' that is, plainly, not because he's a heartless bastard but because it's that or give up and cry, and Avon doesn't cry...)


Yes, you're right he probably calculates it's in his best interests to captain a small crew in a democratic fashion. I just don't think that's the *only*reason he leads by consensus, otherwise a more autocratic side would show itself from time to time no matter what, as with Blake.

As regards his 'altruism'; in MtD, although we and he can see that he's been manoeuvered into staying by Blake & Cally, he gives himself a get-out clause with his line about curiosity.


But that's not a convincing reason to stay trapped with a murderer.

In Deliverance, he returns for Jenna because she's the pilot he needs for 'his' ship and going against the rest of the crew is more trouble than he can handle alone.


But would he have left her down there had she *not* been the pilot?

On Cephlon, he is in the astonishing position of being ego-bombed by Meegat's adoration and realising that achieving what she wants is well within his capabilities, thus retaining her as a useful ally. {Sorry, meegat39!}


She was a lovely girl, but I don't think she had much strategically to offer him.
 
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