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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
14% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
7% [7 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [14 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 97
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Kerr Avon
meegat39
President Solvite wrote:

Edited slight formatting issue to clarify quote Meegat!

Its interesting isn't it? Avon could have taken the Liberator during Horizon but he didn't.

Despite his flair for the histrionics with Blake he tended to do different things than what his words said. Probably because he accepted that they to a degree complemented each others skills.

I think deep down despite what he said Avon did 'need' people or was it a desire to be 'needed'? It is this ambiguity of Avon's motives I think which is what drives a lot of the interest in his character.


Thanks PS and I think you are probably right. Avon did need people, but he didn't need to be the leader except that being in charge of the Liberator and in the protection of himself, the Liberator and the people inside it put him in that position. That's my take on it anyhow.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
meegat39 wrote:

Avon did need people, but he didn't need to be the leader except that being in charge of the Liberator and in the protection of himself, the Liberator and the people inside it put him in that position. That's my take on it anyhow.

Which points toward a 'shared responsibility' for the loss of the Liberator: it was either everyone's fault, or it was Avon's fault but still everyone else's fault for putting poor misunderstood Avon in the position in the first place. Really not sure I subscribe to the view that the loss of the ship was down to anything beyond Avon's hubris.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

Avon did need people, but he didn't need to be the leader except that being in charge of the Liberator and in the protection of himself, the Liberator and the people inside it put him in that position. That's my take on it anyhow.

Which points toward a 'shared responsibility' for the loss of the Liberator: it was either everyone's fault, or it was Avon's fault but still everyone else's fault for putting poor misunderstood Avon in the position in the first place. Really not sure I subscribe to the view that the loss of the ship was down to anything beyond Avon's hubris.


It can't be "shared responsbility" when Avon is taking them through the ion particle field, against the wishes of the crew, having reprorgrammed Zen and then holds Tarrant at gunpoint. It is the fault of one man.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
My view entirely TT Oops
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
meegat39
Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator, but only Avon knew there was a chance of finding Blake and he had specific instructions to follow and a rendezvous to keep. It's easy to blame Avon, but if Blake had been in the same position, it's very possible he would have made the same decision.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
meegat39 wrote:

Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator.

So why fly through it? Avon had the Liberator but didn't have Blake. He risked on a 'both or neither' gamble and lost. His choice, his hubris, his failure.

meegat39 wrote:

...but only Avon knew there was a chance of finding Blake...

But why was finding Blake actually important? If it was anything other than Avon's personal wish, why was he so afraid of sharing the mission with the crew? They had everything, Avon lost it all.

meegat39 wrote:

...if Blake had been in the same position, it's very possible he would have made the same decision

Is that supposed to be a defense?
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
meegat39
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator.

So why fly through it? Avon had the Liberator but didn't have Blake. He risked on a 'both or neither' gamble and lost. His choice, his hubris, his failure.

meegat39 wrote:

...but only Avon knew there was a chance of finding Blake...

But why was finding Blake actually important? If it was anything other than Avon's personal wish, why was he so afraid of sharing the mission with the crew? They had everything, Avon lost it all.

meegat39 wrote:

...if Blake had been in the same position, it's very possible he would have made the same decision

Is that supposed to be a defense?


Avon knew that the "voice of Blake" he had heard, could well be a trick by Servalan, as proved the case, so he didn't want to risk the crew knowing and going as well.

It's not supposed to be a defense, it's supposed to be a theory. Anyone of the crew in the same position could have acted the same. Beyond this I am not prepared to speculate further. All I am saying is I can see the reasons why he took the actions he did.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
meegat39 wrote:
Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator.

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
So why fly through it? Avon had the Liberator but didn't have Blake. He risked on a 'both or neither' gamble and lost. His choice, his hubris, his failure.

meegat39 wrote:Avon knew that the "voice of Blake" he had heard, could well be a trick by Servalan, as proved the case, so he didn't want to risk the crew knowing and going as well.

But they did all have to go with him, at gun point and with Zen reprogrammed!

meegat39 wrote:It's not supposed to be a defense, it's supposed to be a theory.

Your original response to the suggestion that the loss of Liberator was purely Avon's fault, and his responsibility alone, began "It's easy to blame Avon, but..."; the word 'but' seemed to mean you were proposing reasoning why the blame wasn't entirely Avon's. That is making a defence.

edit: to clarify my question "is that supposed to be a defence": I was referring to the point that Blake was such a poor leader, so comparing Avon's leadership qualities to his only underlines the point that Avon was also a poor leader.
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 11 January 2014 12:45:19
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
President Solvite
Avon was not only a poor leader, I position that he is worse..

Blake would have persuaded Tarrant through reason, argument etc. whatever. Avon has to do it by locking down computer systems and the end of the gun.

That is the difference between them. Both are interesting characters though and that is what makes the series a success.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
littlesue
While going through my B7 box in preparation for April 13th, I found this newspaper pic of the man himself.
It was printed in the Sunday Mirror August 21st 1983.
i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/smallwondersue/Avonpic_zpse4e507df.jpg
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
rebel run video http://www.youtub...prqS-XZtLo
Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:
Blake would have persuaded Tarrant through reason, argument etc. whatever.


Blake and reason in the same sentence - that's a first. Blake's manner of persuasion is normally to shake someone to the point of death. Oops

Or in the case of Sarkoff, to bully him into submission.Smile

But I agree both Avon and Blake are fascinating characters - in many ways, thanks to their numerous flwas.
 
meegat39
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

meegat39 wrote:
Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator.

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
So why fly through it? Avon had the Liberator but didn't have Blake. He risked on a 'both or neither' gamble and lost. His choice, his hubris, his failure.

meegat39 wrote:Avon knew that the "voice of Blake" he had heard, could well be a trick by Servalan, as proved the case, so he didn't want to risk the crew knowing and going as well.

But they did all have to go with him, at gun point and with Zen reprogrammed!

meegat39 wrote:It's not supposed to be a defense, it's supposed to be a theory.

Your original response to the suggestion that the loss of Liberator was purely Avon's fault, and his responsibility alone, began "It's easy to blame Avon, but..."; the word 'but' seemed to mean you were proposing reasoning why the blame wasn't entirely Avon's. That is making a defence.

edit: to clarify my question "is that supposed to be a defence": I was referring to the point that Blake was such a poor leader, so comparing Avon's leadership qualities to his only underlines the point that Avon was also a poor leader.


When I said going I meant going down onto the planet. As the others were on board the Liberator they had to come so he could get there. I'm not saying that Avon's actions were justified, just that I can understand why he did it. I agree Avon was a poor leader, but I stand by my assertion that he never wanted to be one. I also feel that Blake would have gone through the particle cloud had he felt it necessary, although probably not by holding the others at gunpoint. In summary, I agree that both Blake and Avon were poor leaders.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
meegat39
littlesue wrote:

While going through my B7 box in preparation for April 13th, I found this newspaper pic of the man himself.
It was printed in the Sunday Mirror August 21st 1983.
i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/smallwondersue/Avonpic_zpse4e507df.jpg


Lovely! Thanks for sharing. More please!
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
President Solvite
Or in the case of Sarkoff, to bully him into submission


Whilst I appreciate smashing a vinyl record might upset some music enthusiasts, we are talking about a whole planetary population lives being at stake. We need to keep some sense of proportion here as Blake did.

Sarkoff needed a shock to shake him out of his conditioning by his Federation 'friends' and they needed to get out of there quickly. If Blake had dithered more and played nice no doubt he would be berated for unneccessarily endangering peoples lives.

At least he didn't 'prat' around like Avon and Del Grant in Countdown whilst they were messing around with bombs, holes, grunting and inserting rods. Perhaps this was Avon making himself needed and doing things in the nick of time again Pfft
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
BradPaula
President Solvite writes: "At least he didn't 'prat' about like Avon and Del Grant in Countdown whilst they were messing around with bombs, holes, grunting and inserting rods."

True and happy to see someone else spotted this. They could have finished the job of saving the planet, beaten each other silly and then ended up in an Albion pub getting wasted whilst trying to hit on Ralli in the time they pratted about pawing the ground and giving each other dirty looks.

As for Blake and Avon, both men had their flaws and this brought about their various attitudes towards each other but that made them all the more compelling and that's probably the reason we're still discussing this over 30 yers later. -Paula
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
AnnaGrant
Avon has always been my favourite character, and that isn't with the benefit of hindsight.
As a 14 year old I was completely overwhelmed by his character. He was so clever, sarcastic and charismatic- completely different to anyone I knew. I was shocked by what he did and said, but that made him all the more exciting!
Huge fangirl crush.
 
peladon
I considered not returning here (lost registration and all that) but this new thread persuaded me to if only to say this.

My overwhelming first impression of Avon was of a very frightened man doing his best not to seem it. My second was that Blake was equally terrified but for a different reason. Avon has no choice whilst the others support Blake and Blake has no choice while they do either.

Reams of analysis later I still hold to those views. Both men learn to adapt and Avon certainly seems to transcend his fears but the memory of it must remain.

Also, leaders are just that and both Blake and Avon act differently when taking that role. Hence both of them can be seen from some perspectives to be dictatorial in some situations.

In S4 Avon goes one step further and beciomes a commander, a different role again.
 
JustBrad
@Peladon. Spot on. I always felt Blake was afraid of failure, of failing, and being the only survivor, a modified form of Survivor's Guilt. It had happened before. How would he react if it happened again? Maybe we find out in Blake.

Re Avon: I think you are right, but I'm not sure what Avon is afraid of.
Death? Probably not.
 
Travisina
We've reuploaded an article examining Avon's actions throughout Season 4 -

http://www.blakes7online.com/articles.php?article_id=16
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
peladon
JustBrad wrote:

@Peladon. Spot on. I always felt Blake was afraid of failure, of failing, and being the only survivor, a modified form of Survivor's Guilt. It had happened before. How would he react if it happened again? Maybe we find out in Blake.

Re Avon: I think you are right, but I'm not sure what Avon is afraid of.
Death? Probably not.


I'd agree that Blake shows classic signs of survivor guilt, I think that he feels driven to succeed in part to justify that survival.

As for Avon, I'm not sure that he begins unafraid of death so I think it is a factor, but possibly more than that he is afraid because he is totally out of his depth, and with all control lost in a situation he seems unable to influence and that is alien to him. Helpless is not the right word but its clear that he feels cut off from the others and unsure about where he goes from there. My take is that gradually he accepts there is no going back and starts to make a bid to regain some control, which exacerbates the situation with Blake of course.
 
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