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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Kerr Avon
Grade Four Ignorant
peladon wrote:
Your evidence for that being......


From Space Fall
A new identity, a new job in the Federation Banking System. Three months with their computers and I could lift a hundred million credits and nobody would know where they went. Then let anyone try and touch me.


From The Keeper
Through Star One we could control everything. The Federation could belong to us.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
But G4I, he doesn't get that 3 months in the FBS or control of Star One. Where is the evidence that he equates money with power? He equates money with comfort and freedom, but I don't see the evidence for him seeing money as a route to authority. And where is this 'nest egg' likely to be? Obviously not on the Liberator as that's where the jewels have been all along, or do you think there's a little tin box of stolen jewels under his bunk. That would be more in Vila's personality than Avon's imo.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Achilles
trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:
( though the Anna business is nonsensical purple plotting).


And there was little me thinking "Rumours" was one of the best-ever episodes of televsion, rather than it being "nonsensical". Grin


By co-incidence, I watched it yesterday, as I work my was through the DVD's. I thought it was excellent. One of the best B7 episodes ever, with a fantastic performance by Paul Darrow. It's been years since I watched B7, & I had forgotten how good "Rumours of Death" was.
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

But G4I, he doesn't get that 3 months in the FBS or control of Star One. Where is the evidence that he equates money with power? He equates money with comfort and freedom, but I don't see the evidence for him seeing money as a route to authority. And where is this 'nest egg' likely to be? Obviously not on the Liberator as that's where the jewels have been all along, or do you think there's a little tin box of stolen jewels under his bunk. That would be more in Vila's personality than Avon's imo.


Avon and Vila share some traits - yesterday's rewatch (Gambit) is proof of that. Although Avon also looks after No 1, so he makes sure it's Vila who takes the risks.

Avon is greedy, but I'm still not sure if that alone explains his behaviour in "Terminal". IMO something has happened to him between "Death-Watch" and "Terminal".
Edited by trevor travis on 19 March 2014 08:30:00
 
trevor travis
Achilles wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:
( though the Anna business is nonsensical purple plotting).


And there was little me thinking "Rumours" was one of the best-ever episodes of televsion, rather than it being "nonsensical". Grin


By co-incidence, I watched it yesterday, as I work my was through the DVD's. I thought it was excellent. One of the best B7 episodes ever, with a fantastic performance by Paul Darrow. It's been years since I watched B7, & I had forgotten how good "Rumours of Death" was.


That's my view as well - it's a truly fantastic episode.

I just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with Peladon's view that it has "nonsensical purple plotting". Of course, everyone is entitled to their view, but I was intrigued to see how common this view was.
 
Achilles
"Nonsensical purple plotting"?? I'm not sure I know what that it.

There are many, many far fetched and at times ridiculous plots in B7, but it's not really the point for me.

It's the characterisation and the way the characters interact that make it so entertaining
 
Sopron
Peladon, you know that I support your views on S4/Derek and the character of Avon within it. I can also understand that you would view RoD as a bit Mills&Boon-y. Nonetheless, I'm with the majority on this. As a stand-alone episode I consider it one of the best, certainly up there in my top 5. It opens up a whole world of back-story, not just for the character of Avon, but also for how we can interpret the unseen actions of the Federation which spawned the whole rebellion. What kind of organisation did Bartolomew come from, how many variants on this kind of organisation exist, what criteria were applied to potential surveillance targets, how many layers of intrigue ran through everyday life under the Federation,quis custodiet ipsos custodes, etc., etc.?

Add to that the beguiling personal history of our favourite geek and you have a cracking episode with, as has been pointed out, superb dialogue and compelling performances. What's not to love?
 
peladon
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

peladon wrote:
Your evidence for that being......


From Space Fall
A new identity, a new job in the Federation Banking System. Three months with their computers and I could lift a hundred million credits and nobody would know where they went. Then let anyone try and touch me.


From The Keeper
Through Star One we could control everything. The Federation could belong to us.


Well ....the SF quote - read the last line, its still about security and highlights that he had real fears for some reason and not all related to his association with Blake. As for TK quote you can read it several ways as well as a desire for power (Avon shows none) and wealth. - 'we would not have to fight anymore', 'we dont have to risk going to Star One' (he was talking about controlling it through Orac I think), 'we could all be safe for ever'
 
peladon
Achilles wrote:

"Nonsensical purple plotting"?? I'm not sure I know what that it.

There are many, many far fetched and at times ridiculous plots in B7, but it's not really the point for me.

It's the characterisation and the way the characters interact that make it so entertaining


I explained what I meant by it previously - are those posts still lost?

Generally its a sort of analogy to purple prose but in terms of story construction and plotting rather than simply language.
 
peladon
Sopron wrote:

Peladon, you know that I support your views on S4/Derek and the character of Avon within it. I can also understand that you would view RoD as a bit Mills&Boon-y. Nonetheless, I'm with the majority on this. As a stand-alone episode I consider it one of the best, certainly up there in my top 5. It opens up a whole world of back-story, not just for the character of Avon, but also for how we can interpret the unseen actions of the Federation which spawned the whole rebellion. What kind of organisation did Bartolomew come from, how many variants on this kind of organisation exist, what criteria were applied to potential surveillance targets, how many layers of intrigue ran through everyday life under the Federation,quis custodiet ipsos custodes, etc., etc.?

Add to that the beguiling personal history of our favourite geek and you have a cracking episode with, as has been pointed out, superb dialogue and compelling performances. What's not to love?

'
Hi. Yes, and I know that many feel that way and I'm perfectly willing to be in a minority. Smile

I've just been doing more analysis of this ep for bits of the next two chapters of my flight of fancy, trying to make it make sense, and for me it just gets worse every time I run through it again. Its true that I dont go much on blatant sentimentality but even so at each pass through the plot, its assumptions and mechanics, the holes get worse and the basic premise seems more absurd. Some of the dialogue is good and the acting in the latter part is top notch, but for me that just doesn't balance the deficiencies.

But as I've said I know others get a lot of pleasure from it and I'm content to be the dissenter without support.

I suppose my only other comment would be if the subject had been someone else, an incidental character perhaps only there for one episode, would everyone feel the same way about it.
 
Sopron
Hmmm...., an incidental character......., on the whole, I'd say possibly, but it would take a lot of careful plotting and a superb actor (-ress) to get the initial premise across and generate the sympathy required to maintain interest in the outcome in a single episode (which is all we ever get from i/c's in B7).

If it were one of the other crew, or regulars, you'd have the initial sympathy. Indeed, the sudden appearance of a 'history' occurs with Blake (cousin) Cally (sister), Tarrant (brother) and Dayna (tutor/lover)*. In fact, it could be argued that a similar story involving a restored Blake could have been infinitely preferable to the slightly worrying 'Inga'...

The killer here is that it's Ker 'self-sufficient-mind-your-own-business-my-personal-life-is-my-own-affair-I-care-for-none-but-me(although you should judge me by my actions, not my words)' Avon. So, of course, the interest will ratchet right up!

So, I think my answer is; yes, under certain conditions there could be a similar interest in such an episode, even were it to feature an incidental character, although I would not want to be the one to write it! At the same time, I concur that the interest would not be quite the same for most Avonophiles Smile

*{apologies for the reference to 'Animals'. I'll try not to do it again!}
 
magnificat
Sopron wrote:

magnificat wrote:

I haven't seen Season 4 yet. Apparently Avon changes quite a lot during it from what I've read.


And this weeks award for unintended understatement goes to....!!

Let me know what you think after seeing it, magnificat GrinAngry


First thoughts on Season 4


I watched Orbit first, as I'd heard so many good things about it. I've found the character changes to be quite radical from Season 3:

- Tarrant appears to have changed from an arrogant, aggressive-but-never-boring mercenary into a boy scout
- Dayna has changed from a gutsy shooter into a girl who sits around giggling (or is that just what women do in a Bob Holmes script?)
- The mighty Zen has been replaced by a pressure cooker so irritating it made me wish the s.1 flame-dribbling security robot had been recruited for computing duties instead. At least it was cute.

i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/pez47/Crooked%20Dice/FedSec%20Support%20-%20July%202013/10c87c20fef65b5be5eb12f8cc8b4714_zps22eb891f.jpg
- As for Avon, I understood for the first time why people have concluded he's a sociopath. He's like a stone statue in this episode. How representative "Orbit" is of S. 4 as a whole I don't know, but it's a massive change from, say, the Avon of "Rumours" or "Sarcophagus".

I don't like to speak ill of a fan favourite, but I have to say the episode left me with a somewhat desolate and dismal feeling. Well acted, though.
 
peladon
magnificat wrote:

Sopron wrote:

magnificat wrote:

I haven't seen Season 4 yet. Apparently Avon changes quite a lot during it from what I've read.


And this weeks award for unintended understatement goes to....!!

Let me know what you think after seeing it, magnificat GrinAngry


First thoughts on Season 4




I watched Orbit first, as I'd heard so many good things about it. I've found the character changes to be quite radical from Season 3:

- Tarrant appears to have changed from an arrogant, aggressive-but-never-boring mercenary into a boy scout
- Dayna has changed from a gutsy shooter into a girl who sits around giggling (or is that just what women do in a Bob Holmes script?)
- The mighty Zen has been replaced by a pressure cooker so irritating it made me wish the s.1 flame-dribbling security robot had been recruited for computing duties instead. At least it was cute.

i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/pez47/Crooked%20Dice/FedSec%20Support%20-%20July%202013/10c87c20fef65b5be5eb12f8cc8b4714_zps22eb891f.jpg
- As for Avon, I understood for the first time why people have concluded he's a sociopath. He's like a stone statue in this episode. How representative "Orbit" is of S. 4 as a whole I don't know, but it's a massive change from, say, the Avon of "Rumours" or "Sarcophagus".

I don't like to speak ill of a fan favourite, but I have to say the episode left me with a somewhat desolate and dismal feeling. Well acted, though.


Speak ill as much as you like, at least as far as I'm concerned. Ive never assumed that fandom is some strange and cosy dell of total consensus. But then I dont rate Orbit....
But you are right Tarrant has lost about a decade in self assurance and experience, Dayna has lost most of her real humour and Avon has lost any connection with being a real person. No its not atypical but more 'in your face' and unsubtle than some of the other episodes.
 
Sopron
In fairness, magnificat, running straight into Orbit might have been a bit much. There is quite a degree of difference in the characters between Colin and Derek (S3/4) but that's exacerbated throughout the season so, by the time you get to Orbit and Warlord, you're almost looking at a different show (or spin-off, as seems to be the current line of thought). It might be a good idea to at least check out Rescue so the season premise is established. Grin
 
magnificat
... Colin and Derek?
 
Sopron
A recent habit on here is to subvert the Beeb's insistence on listing the seasons by alphabet rather than numbers by changing the letters to names. Hence, S1/A becomes Albert (I think), S2= Barney, etc. An affectation I rather like, if only I could remember the bloody names!Wink

EDIT: Apologies if I only added to the confusion...
Edited by Sopron on 24 March 2014 22:49:06
 
magnificat
Oh ok thanks.

Colin is my Chief Homeboy thus far but I'll let you know if Derek changes my mind.
 
magnificat
peladon wrote:

magnificat wrote:

Sopron wrote:

magnificat wrote:

I haven't seen Season 4 yet. Apparently Avon changes quite a lot during it from what I've read.


And this weeks award for unintended understatement goes to....!!

Let me know what you think after seeing it, magnificat GrinAngry


First thoughts on Season 4




I watched Orbit first, as I'd heard so many good things about it. I've found the character changes to be quite radical from Season 3:

- Tarrant appears to have changed from an arrogant, aggressive-but-never-boring mercenary into a boy scout
- Dayna has changed from a gutsy shooter into a girl who sits around giggling (or is that just what women do in a Bob Holmes script?)
- The mighty Zen has been replaced by a pressure cooker so irritating it made me wish the s.1 flame-dribbling security robot had been recruited for computing duties instead. At least it was cute.

i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/pez47/Crooked%20Dice/FedSec%20Support%20-%20July%202013/10c87c20fef65b5be5eb12f8cc8b4714_zps22eb891f.jpg
- As for Avon, I understood for the first time why people have concluded he's a sociopath. He's like a stone statue in this episode. How representative "Orbit" is of S. 4 as a whole I don't know, but it's a massive change from, say, the Avon of "Rumours" or "Sarcophagus".

I don't like to speak ill of a fan favourite, but I have to say the episode left me with a somewhat desolate and dismal feeling. Well acted, though.


Speak ill as much as you like, at least as far as I'm concerned. Ive never assumed that fandom is some strange and cosy dell of total consensus. But then I dont rate Orbit....
But you are right Tarrant has lost about a decade in self assurance and experience, Dayna has lost most of her real humour and Avon has lost any connection with being a real person. No its not atypical but more 'in your face' and unsubtle than some of the other episodes.


I miss Cally a lot, too...
 
Asteria occulta
The Corsair

That man of loneliness and mystery,
Scarce seen to smile, and seldom heard to sigh— (I, VIII)

and
He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt: (I, XII)

"a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection"

Look what I've found today! Sounds like someone we know, doesn't it? And there's more where this came from.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
meegat39
Asteria occulta wrote:

The Corsair

That man of loneliness and mystery,
Scarce seen to smile, and seldom heard to sigh— (I, VIII)

and
He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt: (I, XII)

"a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection"

Look what I've found today! Sounds like someone we know, doesn't it? And there's more where this came from.


Sounds like Avon to me!
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
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