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Kerr Avon
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
We are told by Vila, and by Avon himself at the start of the series (and therefore at character set up) that Avon has had a professional life that doesnít involve crime (and if we taking comments at face value we must accept those comments as statement of truth). Avon also mentions that others were involved in the fraud that got him caught and that one or more of them let him down. So when we meet Tynus the logical assumption is that the fraud Avon refers to shielding Tynus from investigation in is the one he got caught for. While there may have been tester frauds Avon canít have been picked up for them, as he obviously was if he shielded Tynus, because if someone with his skills had been even suspected of criminal intent the he would never have been allowed anywhere near a chance at the bank fraud. What interaction we see/hear between Avon and Tynus doesnít challenge that assumption. Itís also true that Avon may also have needed to do a little criminal activity/research to make contact with the visa seller we hear about in Countdown.

But when we come to SD and Keiller the situation is different. Keiller could have been part of the fraud that got Avon caught for, just like Tynus, but, in keeping with the general approach in SD, the dialogue suggests that Avon had a wider criminal experience and that Keiller was a part of that other criminal activity. This is the first we have heard of this but now you, as the viewer, have a choice, either you discount the dialogue around Keiller in SD, or you re-write your assessment of Avon 1, even though there is nothing previously disclosed to justify doing that. So either Avon 1 was more criminal than the evidence suggests or Avon 2 is in someway changed in terms of his personal history. Personally I reject the implications of Keiller as froth and nonsense or consider that the man (Avon 2) is no longer Avon 1. Others do the rewrite of Avon 1.


Some interesting comments there, Peladon.

Regarding Tynus, at no point in the dialogue of "Killer" is Anna mentioned or hinted at, or the scale of Avon's theft. Therefore, I tend to think that Tynus wasn't involved in Avon's grand embezzlement plan. I actually think it's Vila who would have mentioned if it was 'the big theft' - I also get the impression that, as a thief, Vila was impressed of the size of Avon's scheme (although of course he'd never use the language of being "impressed" in front of Avon).

Of course it could have been another smaller-scale fraud. That makes a certain amount of sense.

But then we have to look at the actions of Avon in other episodes. The fact is he does resort to theft or blackmail or other criminal activities very easily. For instance, look at "Gambit" - he and Vila are as thick as thieves. And it's Avon's original idea, not Vila's.

Avon seems to have been one of those apparently respectable types, who have got to live the high life, through nefarious means. If you look at our society, this happens so often. To be a success, you have to be ruthless. Avon has taken his talent with computers and used it to commit fraud. In the end, he tried too big a fraud and ended up on way to Cygnus Alpha.

Other examples that show Avon is no stranger to the criminal world: the fact he is able to handle his way so well in that fight in "Space Fall" (perhaps the most violent fight in the whole of B7), and the fact he can handle a gun without being part of the military.

Avon's association with Keiller doesn't surprise me one little bit. He actually matches with the 'old Avon' pre-Liberator, a seemingly respectable character who resort to fraud and theft without a second thought.

No need to rewrite a single line from what we're told in the first three seasons, especially as the theft in "Gold" involves making money. It follows organically from what we're told and see about Avon from his very first appearance.
Edited by trevor travis on 14 February 2015 08:56:24
 
peladon
Anniew wrote:


3.Freud saw cynicism as despair ( a drive to death) which sprang from bitter disappointment and disillusion - that's what I mean by deeply sentimental. Avon is a hopeless idealist who unconsciously sabotages the good in his life - as when he convinces himself Blake has betrayed him.

4Macbeth's whole language and physical posture changes after the murder of Duncan as does his way of relating to his wife - symbols of evil ( rooks/ snakes/ scorpions) tied me to the stake/ walking shadow - suggest posture changes . She should have died hereafter ( no emotion when wife kills herself) Patrick Stewart's performance shows this very well.

5. The keeper - Avon destroys Travis ship and all on board . Would do the same with Servalan. He kills Tynus. Would abandon Blake on Cygnus Alpha and then get rid of Jenna . All examples of killing ( in Blake's case second hand) for his own interests so the POTENTIAL is there but like Macbeth there is an inner war between his greed and his sense of honour - and in the end greed and survival win out.


3.Freud saw cynicism as despair...

LOL, you lost any possible chance of me agreeing when you mentioned Freud, I rejected his work as deeply flawed and biased by his own experiences when I was first required to actually read it.

Avon is a pragmatist and one living in a rather corrupt and negative society. He is also very bright, observant and honest with himself. Not to be a cynic in those circumstances would take a miracle, or a psychiatric condition. Grin Avonís assumption of Blakeís betrayal makes no sense on any level at all, either in the context of either Avon, the episode or the Series (even D) so I donít think its reliable evidence. After all Avon asks about betrayal he doesnít state it. But again if you accept that a he assumes betrayal and kills as a result and b. that this is still Avon 1 then once again you will need to re-invent Avon 1 to make the progression fit and be consistent.

4Macbeth's whole language ...
But itís all in the performance, so its all artistic interpretation (never reliable in my book). You would expect his relationship to his wife to change Ė she has just persuaded him to do something very risky and evil by his code, she could betray him as easily and he canít divorce her or risk killing her.

5. The keeper - Avon destroys Travis ship and all on board . ..

Travis and his ship is the enemy for Avon and I think that he would see the destruction of it as a pre-emptive strike aimed at the survival of his group. It fits with his willingness to take unpleasant decisions when required (something that is consistent across SA-C).

He doesnít kill Tynus, he is the cause of his death but Tynus dies as a result of a fight.

He would abandon Blake but as they were both already headed to CA when they meet he would probably have seen that as Ďhim or meí and would not feel particularly responsible for what happened to Blake afterwards. There is no evidence at all that I can see that he would then get rid of Jenna, quite the opposite. As for it being the potential for Avon 2, thatís only true in that we all carry this potential and in Avonís universe and in his situation it is more likely to show. However there is no evidence in SA-D that it is going to develop in any abnormal way or produce a significant personality and/or value shift.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:


Some interesting comments there, Peladon.

Regarding Tynus, at no point in the dialogue of "Killer" is Anna mentioned or hinted at, or the scale of Avon's theft. Therefore, I tend to think that Tynus wasn't involved in Avon's grand embezzlement plan. I actually think it's Vila who would have mentioned if it was 'the big theft' - I also get the impression that, as a thief, Vila was impressed of the size of Avon's scheme (although of course he'd never use the language of being "impressed" in front of Avon).

Of course it could have been another smaller-scale fraud. That makes a certain amount of sense.

But then we have to look at the actions of Avon in other episodes. The fact is he does resort to theft or blackmail or other criminal activities very easily. For instance, look at "Gambit" - he and Vila are as thick as thieves. And it's Avon's original idea, not Vila's.

Avon seems to have been one of those apparently respectable types, who have got to live the high life, through nefarious means. If you look at our society, this happens so often. To be a success, you have to be ruthless. Avon has taken his talent with computers and used it to commit fraud. In the end, he tried too big a fraud and ended up on way to Cygnus Alpha.

Other examples that show Avon is no stranger to the criminal world: the fact he is able to handle his way so well in that fight in "Space Fall" (perhaps the most violent fight in the whole of B7), and the fact he can handle a gun without being part of the military.

Avon's association with Keiller doesn't surprise me one little bit. He actually matches with the 'old Avon' pre-Liberator, a seemingly respectable character who resort to fraud and theft without a second thought.

No need to rewrite a single line from what we're told in the first three seasons, especially as the theft in "Gold" involves making money. It follows organically from what we're told and see about Avon from his very first appearance.


OK, time tight so excuse the form of the reply:

1. Regarding Tynus, at no point in the dialogue of "Killer" is Anna mentioned or hinted at, or the scale of Avon's theft.

Why would it be? There is nothing in the episode to cue such a comment, they donít sit down and have a de brief on the fraud and those involved. Tynus may not have known about Anna, she may have been a completely seperate section of his life. In fact that is exactly what she would have wanted.


2. But then we have to look at the actions of Avon in other episodes. The fact is he does resort to theft or blackmail or other criminal activities very easily.

Does he? I'd suggest that is a Sd shaded re-invention of the original character when we look at the first three series in terms of what is actually there. So I'd ask when? Other than Gambit there is no such instance prior to SD. Even in Gambit itís a case of going up against what is already a bent set up, he like Vila would probably see the casino as fair game rather than a victim.

3. Avon seems to have been one of those apparently respectable types, who have got to live the high life, through nefarious means.

If he did, we donít know that he lived the high life at any point. Itís clear that he turned to crime for safety through wealth however, and one of the most fascinatihg speculations about him is how and why. Much more interesting than who he slept with in my book.


4. Other examples that show Avon is no stranger to the criminal world: the fact he is able to handle his way so well in that fight in "Space Fall".

Iíd suggest that a wide rage of people can have some physical combat skills, I know everal who engage in judo for example and they are certainly not criminals. But in this case Iíd suggest sheer desperation and the determination to get out of a awful fate.

5Ö.the fact he can handle a gun without being part of the military.

We donít see him handle a gun in anger until well into the series Ė plenty of time to learn and a man like Avon would make sure that he did learn.

6.Avon's association with Keiller doesn't surprise me one little bit. He actually matches with the 'old Avon' pre-Liberator, a seemingly respectable character who resort to fraud and theft without a second thought.

See above

7. No need to rewrite a single line from what we're told in the first three seasons, especially as the theft in "Gold" involves making money. It follows organically from what we're told and see about Avon from his very first appearance

See above
 
trevor travis
Peladon, I'm still struggling to see how Avon knowing Tynus is much different, if at all different, from him knowing Keiller.

Both are men, who behind apparently respectable jobs, will resort to financial crime.

Both know Avon due to his own dabblings in this field. It's very unlikely Avon would have tried to steal millions from the banks of the Federation, without some smaller frauds to begin with. Both Tynus and Keiller were either involved in these, and maybe BOTH were involved in the big fraud.

I also fail to see why you don't want characters to develop from season-to-season, and why they have to stay exactly the same. Good drama often focuses on developing characters and revealing new things about them, allowing the actors a chance to show their range.

Avon in particular receives development in every season. I consider this a good thing, not a bad thing. He's an intriguing character, and it's fascinating (if slightly horrifying) to see the road his character takes from "Space Fall" to "Blake."

I guess we're never going to completely agree, as I fall very much into the definition of a loyalist, while you fall into that of a jumper (and my guess is that you would pick "Rescue" as your Jump The Shark moment). And as a loyalist, I will defend the whole of B7. Wink
 
peladon
Anniew wrote:

6 he is always rough with women - Sara / Cally at times -who he suggests they airlock her in the web- Servalan. Jenna at the teleport when he grabs and twists her wrist.

7. Cally's death follows Avon's admission'. I gave Servalan the Liberator'. He has to blame himself a bit for her death.

By the by, I really love your written work!


6 He is always rough with women - Sara / Cally at times - who he suggests they airlock her in the web- Servalan. Jenna at the teleport when he grabs and twists her wrist.

When I first came across this argument (when I first came to the fandom) I was intrigued because despite my feminist leanings I had not noted it as a characteristic of Avon. So I went back and watched his interaction with women specifically, all women, and after several reviews (honest I think) I came to the conclusion that such a perception is, in most instances, a case of 21st century baggage colouring the perception of events (just as personal history and circumstance will influence witness and other third party statements).

Avonís response to being attacked is consistent across attackers and there is no instance of hostility or aggression towards women specifically that I can see. So, he will react aggressively when his life is threatened, and in the early days when frightened and out of his depth (which happens several times) which he no doubt reads as an attack. The aggressive response will not be changed by the sex of the person threatening him which looks difficult to 20/21st century eyes. When the chips are down Avon fights to win, but as I said this is not limited to women. So does this equate to roughness with women. Well, possibly not if you strip out our cultural assumptions. (TN at least was quite good at standing outside of them). We must remember this is Sci Fi not romance and set approx 1000 years into the future not 19th century, and it may be that genetic engineering has broken the link between height/mass and strength. In fact even today the strength distributions for me and women show significant overlap (when corrected for health and culture). So the assumption that they will be weaker/less able to fight needs to be set aside when assessing his actions.


To the specifics then.

In Jennaís case, he Ďmanhandlesí her several times in the early part of the series, and I am pretty convinced myself his action is panic and fear in most instances and desperate desire to make her see what he considers sense. She, as the pilot, holds his safety in her hands particularly when she is supporting Blake against what he sees as his best interests (safety). When she acts in a way that endangers him he will take hold of her, but then he does exactly the same with Blake, the other person he sees as having power over him. So not a Ďwomení thing but a Ďpower/safetyí thing.

In the instance with Servalan he throws her off but not necessarily with the intention to push her to the floor and he makes no move to follow up, any more than he does in any other instance. Here, Iíd suggest, that its contempt for a very clumsy attempt at ensnaring him mixed with the understanding of what the ultimate outcome of she is trying to do would be. His death.

So to Sara Ė the one thatís often cited in this type of discussion. As a start point we need to remember the context of the event, what she is and has done - this is a woman who has just pushed a force knife through a man who was a lot taller than she was and almost certainly on his guard, and has also hefted another manís body onto the top of a cabinet (no sign of any lifting gear). When Avon grabs her she could give in Ė but she doesnít. She could try to run or attempt duplicity but she doesnít do either, instead she physically breaks his hold on her and then, instead of putting her knee in his groin, she opts for a frontal and strength dependent assault. She chooses to throttle him, to put her hands around his throat and choke the life out of him, the most physical option available to her. Now look at her face as she does so, she isnít scared or desperate, she seems to be determined and, if not enjoying it, confident of her ability to kill him in this manner. She holds her grip well too, and itís as much by desperation and luck as physical power that he breaks her hold. Having done so he takes no further risks and does what he would have done to a male assailant and with the same effect. So on balance I donít see that her gender comes into the equation, its only that throw away comment that muddies the water Ė however it is the sort of thing that he might say to someone who doesnít know him very well, and possibly in part to cover his own shock at being attacked in that manner. It remains one of the oddities of that episode Ė along with Blake setting and unnecessary charge.

As for Cally, his response to her initially is no more extreme than that of the others and the only other occasion where he is Ďroughí with her are similar in context to Jenna, or are at a point when she is trying to kill them all.

At other times Avon shows no aggression to women in either speech or action and also shows consistent respect for womenís abilities. He also displays gentleness in appropriate circumstances, so when he finds Cally injured in Project Avalon and towards Kasabiís daughter on hearing of the death of her mother.

7. Cally's death follows Avon's admission'. I gave Servalan the Liberator'. He has to blame himself a bit for her death.

Perhaps, maybe regret would be the better term, but not to the degree that he would change significantly as a result.

By the by, I really love your written work!

Thank you; I like what Iíve seen of yours too.
 
peladon
BradPaula wrote:

Stephen Grief thought the character of Travis was becoming very one-dimensional with "I'll get you next time, Blake," type lines. He did indeed injury himself but decided not to continue in the role for artistic reasons. And that comes from the 'horse's mouth'.


As I said I'd not come across that info before, but then I'm not much interested in cast type stuff. I can see why, after 'Orac', he might have wondered what was waiting and chosen to jump ship.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

Peladon, I'm still struggling to see how Avon knowing Tynus is much different, if at all different, from him knowing Keiller.

Both are men, who behind apparently respectable jobs, will resort to financial crime.

Both know Avon due to his own dabblings in this field. It's very unlikely Avon would have tried to steal millions from the banks of the Federation, without some smaller frauds to begin with. Both Tynus and Keiller were either involved in these, and maybe BOTH were involved in the big fraud.

I also fail to see why you don't want characters to develop from season-to-season, and why they have to stay exactly the same. Good drama often focuses on developing characters and revealing new things about them, allowing the actors a chance to show their range.

Avon in particular receives development in every season. I consider this a good thing, not a bad thing. He's an intriguing character, and it's fascinating (if slightly horrifying) to see the road his character takes from "Space Fall" to "Blake."

I guess we're never going to completely agree, as I fall very much into the definition of a loyalist, while you fall into that of a jumper (and my guess is that you would pick "Rescue" as your Jump The Shark moment). And as a loyalist, I will defend the whole of B7. Wink



Tynus and Keiller are not of themselves very different, though Tynus obviously has most social standing,itís only their implications for the character of Avon as implied in their relationship and the associated dialogue that are different.

We know that other people were involved in Avonís faud and both Tynus and Keiller could be amongst that group. Tynus response would suggest he may have been the person who sold Avon out in the first place. But there is nothing in their interaction to challenge the original set up of Avonís character as recent criminal other than one word which could be read in several ways. Keiller on the other hand implies a whole criminal past, which is, for me, both a departure from the original and illogical. You may read it differently but for me thatís whatís on the screen and it doesnít work.

Re character development - I donít think thatís what Iíve said, but maybe Iíve not expressed myself very well. Smile

I have no issues with development of characters Ė I welcome it Ė but it must be Ďdevelopmentí and by that I mean it must follow in a real world type progression from the characters start point via the events we see and it should be incremental and consistent and it should be revealed. To take a character and change it radically for no reason other than the writer/s want to write a particular type of person (who is different to the original in various ways) or tell a specific form of story (of a different type or context) or to meet their personal writing preferences and abilities is not character development its character hijack. One or two instances can be overlooked as atypical actions but if it continues then in effect the character becomes a different one, but with the same name, the same face and those aspects that the writerís can tie in with the new one even if its at a stretch. This is what I mean by their being no logical path from Avon 1 to Avon 2, none of the sudden changes have been (or are) revealed or noticeably cued by events, nor are they real world extrapolations, they are devices simply dumped on the character for the purpose of delivering a particular form of script.

So Avon 1 becomes Avon 2 the man the writers would prefer to write and the series becomes a form of spin off. Personally even though Iím not a Ďfaní \I think that we have seen something close to this in DW over several seasons.

I donít think we will agree, and thatís fine, though Iím not sure what you mean by a jumper. Iíd say the distortion point of the Avon character (agreed a very interesting one) is Rescue Ė and that it is a distortion not only for Avon but for all the other characters and therefore the series. That I dislike what it is morphed into is a different discussion.
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
I donít think we will agree, and thatís fine, though Iím not sure what you mean by a jumper. Iíd say the distortion point of the Avon character (agreed a very interesting one) is Rescue Ė and that it is a distortion not only for Avon but for all the other characters and therefore the series. That I dislike what it is morphed into is a different discussion.


Peladon, the definition of Jumping The Shark is here:

http://en.wikiped..._the_shark

It's not really based on one character, but rather the whole show. But it does tend to be caused by one single event or episode e.g. the moment which starts a deterioration in the whole programme from that point onwards. One bad episode is not jumping the shark. A bad episode followed by further bad episodes, which never reclaim the previous quality of the programme is jumping the shark.

Someone who feels a programme has "Jumped The Shark" at a certain point is a Jumper. Someone who feels it never has is a Loyalist.

It becomes more complicated with longer running shows, where it's possible for a show to Jump The Shark, but then jump back the other way. And there's some shows which almost Jump The Shark, but never quite do it.
 
meegat39
Trevor I'm interested in this phrase jumping the shark. In my opinion Walking Dead jumped the shark in series 2 but by the end of the season had jumped back again. Currently watching season 4 and loving it!
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Anniew
Peladon, I do hope I'm not flogging a dead Warg but some quotes come to mind
1. Rumours do you think I care and slightly exeggerated anyway. First suggests he welcomes death..2nd that part of him has died. Suggests love of life to me.

2. Avon, then I have to get rid of you. Jenna that would be disarming if I didn't know you meant it. Suggests Avon is ruthless enough to dump Jenna with no regard for her safety ( or even kill her) and she believes he is capable of this. As she is a hardened space pirate who has met some pretty homicidal people, it suggests Avon IS capable of murdering someone for personal gain. And we know he lies to her about killing someone face to face as in Countdown he says he killed the agent face to face.

The latter coukd be revisionism or it could mean that Avon is a potentially ruthless killer when he needs to be who disguises his intentions to others from the start.

I do like the idea of a terrified Avon though but to me that also ties in with Season 4 Avon. If someone is forced persistently to act against their nature through fear, they would go nuts!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
peladon
Anniew wrote:

Peladon, I do hope I'm not flogging a dead Warg but some quotes come to mind
1. Rumours do you think I care and slightly exeggerated anyway. First suggests he welcomes death..2nd that part of him has died. Suggests love of life to me.

2. Avon, then I have to get rid of you. Jenna that would be disarming if I didn't know you meant it. Suggests Avon is ruthless enough to dump Jenna with no regard for her safety ( or even kill her) and she believes he is capable of this. As she is a hardened space pirate who has met some pretty homicidal people, it suggests Avon IS capable of murdering someone for personal gain. And we know he lies to her about killing someone face to face as in Countdown he says he killed the agent face to face.

The latter coukd be revisionism or it could mean that Avon is a potentially ruthless killer when he needs to be who disguises his intentions to others from the start.

I do like the idea of a terrified Avon though but to me that also ties in with Season 4 Avon. If someone is forced persistently to act against their nature through fear, they would go nuts!


Not sure what you mean by the opening lineÖ.

The quote from RoD, well maybe Iím not the best person to discuss that with as I consider RoD pure purple plotting Ė much of the dialogue too. However taking it at face value. At that moment in time I think he is speaking the truth, but the why is more open to interpretation. Personally Iím not sure how much of that is a simple reaction to unanticipated grief, or because he has suddenly seen something he though of as real disintegrate making him wonder about everything else, or because heís suddenly felt the fool in himself, or because others have seen it. Its less clear that a part of him has died. There is remark at the end but that may also mean many things, the death of his self image, or his confidence in his judgement, or his belief that he can throw off anythign life hurls at him. At that moment his both grief stricken and shocked but there is no reason to believe that such a state of mind continues, certainly he appears to reassert his keep regret to a minimum clause quite quickly.

The comment to Jenna occurs in the same time frame and series context as her question about whether he could kill, he seems uncertain. The comment is half joking as is Jennaís response (both have pretty dry and cutting humour). We do find out that he has killed later so it may be that he took her comment (as I always have done from the the first viewing) to mean could you kill in cold blood. But then I personally believe all people are capable of killing in the right circumstances. To judge his potential as a killer we have to look at his other actions in situations where he might kill, or take reports from others who claim to know him and state that potential and the fact is that we are never given any reason in the first three series to assume that he would kill in cold blood or even that he is capable of it. So on the canon evidence I would suggest he is not set up as a casual or ruthless killer.

My personal assessment would be that he gets his terror under control by the end of the first series, but I think that he is bitter about role Blake has forced onto him.
 
Anniew
Peladon,
All I meant was that i hoped I wasn't coming over to you like a drunk at a party, grabbing your elbow and going on and on! I do tend to get a bit obsessive when I'm worrying an opinion and my friends have learned to take me aside and tell me, ' let it go'
I have found your views on Avon very thought provoking.

Love
Annie xx
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
peladon
Anniew wrote:

Peladon,
All I meant was that i hoped I wasn't coming over to you like a drunk at a party, grabbing your elbow and going on and on! I do tend to get a bit obsessive when I'm worrying an opinion and my friends have learned to take me aside and tell me, ' let it go'
I have found your views on Avon very thought provoking.

Love
Annie xx


Oh I see. Well dont worry on my account I'm usually happy to discuss at length as long as its in a relaxed manner, particularly when I'm still writing a character. I consider it useful to trigger a review of my own assumptions and preconceptions and helpful to have someone else to bounce them against. I'll say something like 'we'll never agree' or 'I dont think I will ever see it that way' should it ever get to the 'take aside' moment. Please feeel free to do the sameSmile
 
Anniew
Peladon,

Will doFrown

Annie
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
lemon
I never considered Avon the anti-hero as he is defined, on the contrary to me it seems that he is very sensitive under armor of sharp statements and very loyal. After yesterday's viewing Countdown with a family between me and parents have a dispute becouse of Avon. In this episode he seems much more softly and reminds more dearest to me Avon of season A. My father claims that he seems gets ideals, normal for society, and stops being the anti-hero. He is not saint of course but in general it what he is? Anti-hero character in Blakes's 7?

At all sympathy for Blake's ideals, other ordinary person, whether someone like us, would think hundred times to do what Blake ordered or not. All have an instinct of self-preservation eventually. It does us by anti-heroes? And still Avon all the same follows to Blake, saves Blake's life and lives of crew. Here I probably miss opportunities which will occur in the subsequent seasons. But except caustic remarks and unheroic statements as he can be connected with this label?
 
sweevo
Avon reminds me very much of myself, which is partly why I can understand his reasoning and his behaviour better than anyone else in my household (having AS doesn't hurt, either). I think Avon wants to be a good guy, a decent, caring person, but he has issues showing his emotions and thoughts due to his history of betrayal (Tynus, Anna Grant). His altercations with Blake are not simply him trying to get under the latter's skin, he's telling him: "Look, you fool, you know and I know what I'm trying to tell you might not be what you want to hear, but it's what you need to hear." He doesn't know how to be compassionate or sympathetic because he's had to conceal his softer side through his experiences. He's not an antihero, he's probably the most human of the crew members, with Vila as a close second, which can also explain why the two of them seem to get on fairly well (and form a close - if strange - partnership/relationship/friendship after Gan dies - they know Blake will be the death of them by that point) up until the infamous airlock sequence in Orbit.
 
BradPaula
Sweevo- that is a very astute characterization of Avon. Makes sense to me. Thanks for sharing it. Grin
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
Ellen York
sweevo wrote:

I think Avon wants to be a good guy, a decent, caring person, but he has issues showing his emotions and thoughts due to his history of betrayal (Tynus, Anna Grant).


I actually read him a bit differently. I agree he is a decent person, the problem is that he doesn't want to be. He thinks if he doesn't care he won't get hurt again. So he puts on an act of only being out for himself, but he can't quite pull it off.

I also see him as an introvert, so I suspect that being stick in a closed environment with people that he didn't choose to associate with frequently grates on him. That situation certainly wouldn't do much for my disposition.
 
lemon
sweevo wrote:

Avon reminds me very much of myself, which is partly why I can understand his reasoning and his behaviour better than anyone else in my household (having AS doesn't hurt, either). I think Avon wants to be a good guy, a decent, caring person, but he has issues showing his emotions and thoughts due to his history of betrayal (Tynus, Anna Grant). His altercations with Blake are not simply him trying to get under the latter's skin, he's telling him: "Look, you fool, you know and I know what I'm trying to tell you might not be what you want to hear, but it's what you need to hear." He doesn't know how to be compassionate or sympathetic because he's had to conceal his softer side through his experiences. He's not an antihero, he's probably the most human of the crew members, with Vila as a close second, which can also explain why the two of them seem to get on fairly well (and form a close - if strange - partnership/relationship/friendship after Gan dies - they know Blake will be the death of them by that point) up until the infamous airlock sequence in Orbit.

Yes, I tend to think same way about him now. It's a story with Grant's sister is reason why Avon does not admit people to him, although in fact he gets along good with the crew on the ship (or may already have started to trust them and feel comfortable with them) and he's not bad as a team player.
Something was going to happen in life, so after he didn't trust people so much. True, I thought it was related to his brother, who was shown in Space fall. But this is love struck Avon.
 
dragonq
This is a very interesting thread. One of the things I find most intriguing in it is the difference in views between people who identify with Avon and people who just like the character.

I personally find it very hard to put myself into Avon's headspace. Not only am I not like him personally, I find people who are like him rather repellent in real life; I would really have to know someone like that very well to regard them as a friend. However, I've always valued the character, because Avon creates so much tension and the plots are generally enlivened by having him around.

My observation, for what it is worth is that while Avon presents as an arch-rationalist, and I think, tries very hard to be one, whenever he's up against the wall, his emotions do automatically seem to kick in. You might only see the briefest flicker, you might hear him try to justify himself, but we, like his crewmates, still know they are there and can be depended on. This is why Blake is able tell Avon that he has always trusted him. There's a lot of game playing going on onboard the Liberator, but I don't think it's really in doubt that everyone knows that Avon is fundamentally reliable.

Further to this, I think that's what makes the incident in Orbit so shocking to viewers (and so devastating to Vila): Avon hunting Vila down is not Avon, or at least, so he is so far removed from Avon as we know him that the character is negated.
 
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