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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Kerr Avon
Asteria occulta
Well now, Meegat, great minds think alike, don't they? Grin Grin
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
magnificat
Lurena wrote:

magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...


Why? I struggle to see him being a full-blown sociopath...


IMO Avon demonstrates a lack of empathy in S.4 because:-

- He threatened Soolin's life in 'Warlord'
- He shot the one friend he had
- He tried to kill Vila, then displayed no remorse about it
- His reaction having killed Dr Plaxton (who seemed like a very nice lady) was completely cold
 
littlesue
meegat39 wrote:

Asteria occulta wrote:

The Corsair

That man of loneliness and mystery,
Scarce seen to smile, and seldom heard to sigh— (I, VIII)

and
He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt: (I, XII)

"a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection"

Look what I've found today! Sounds like someone we know, doesn't it? And there's more where this came from.


Sounds like Avon to me!


Yep, I'd go along with that
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
rebel run video http://www.youtub...prqS-XZtLo
Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
peladon
magnificat wrote:

Lurena wrote:

magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...


Why? I struggle to see him being a full-blown sociopath...


IMO Avon demonstrates a lack of empathy in S.4 because:-

- He threatened Soolin's life in 'Warlord'
- He shot the one friend he had
- He tried to kill Vila, then displayed no remorse about it
- His reaction having killed Dr Plaxton (who seemed like a very nice lady) was completely cold


Perhaps - but in Vila's case what good would remorse have been? Do you think any of the others would have done it differently? In the case of Plaxton he has no choice and his words can been seen as a warning to the others not to expect any sack cloth and ashes from him. Blake - well if you believe that it could ever have happened that way it would more a case of too much feeling and not too little. As for Soolin - she can more than take care of herself as Avon would have known very well.

If he is anything he is a man who doesnt wear his heart on his sleeve, someone without the need to shout his every feeling from the rooftops or justify himself to anyone.
 
Lurena
littlesue wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

Asteria occulta wrote:

The Corsair

That man of loneliness and mystery,
Scarce seen to smile, and seldom heard to sigh— (I, VIII)

and
He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt: (I, XII)

"a man proud, moody, cynical, with defiance on his brow, and misery in his heart, a scorner of his kind, implacable in revenge, yet capable of deep and strong affection"

Look what I've found today! Sounds like someone we know, doesn't it? And there's more where this came from.


Sounds like Avon to me!


Yep, I'd go along with that


Yes, I can see...
Lara&Sue's Blake's 7 stories
*No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.*
 
http://lectorisalutem.webs.com/
Lurena
peladon wrote:

magnificat wrote:

Lurena wrote:

magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...


Why? I struggle to see him being a full-blown sociopath...


IMO Avon demonstrates a lack of empathy in S.4 because:-

- He threatened Soolin's life in 'Warlord'
- He shot the one friend he had
- He tried to kill Vila, then displayed no remorse about it
- His reaction having killed Dr Plaxton (who seemed like a very nice lady) was completely cold


Perhaps - but in Vila's case what good would remorse have been? Do you think any of the others would have done it differently? In the case of Plaxton he has no choice and his words can been seen as a warning to the others not to expect any sack cloth and ashes from him. Blake - well if you believe that it could ever have happened that way it would more a case of too much feeling and not too little. As for Soolin - she can more than take care of herself as Avon would have known very well.

If he is anything he is a man who doesnt wear his heart on his sleeve, someone without the need to shout his every feeling from the rooftops or justify himself to anyone.

Thank you for putting my thoughts into these words peladon.
I'd like to add that in order to survive, Avon lives to the rule: "Regret is part of being alive, but keep it a small part", which requires an attitude of not showing emotions...
Lara&Sue's Blake's 7 stories
*No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.*
 
http://lectorisalutem.webs.com/
magnificat
peladon wrote:

magnificat wrote:

Lurena wrote:

magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...


Why? I struggle to see him being a full-blown sociopath...


IMO Avon demonstrates a lack of empathy in S.4 because:-

- He threatened Soolin's life in 'Warlord'
- He shot the one friend he had
- He tried to kill Vila, then displayed no remorse about it
- His reaction having killed Dr Plaxton (who seemed like a very nice lady) was completely cold


Perhaps - but in Vila's case what good would remorse have been? Do you think any of the others would have done it differently? In the case of Plaxton he has no choice and his words can been seen as a warning to the others not to expect any sack cloth and ashes from him. Blake - well if you believe that it could ever have happened that way it would more a case of too much feeling and not too little. As for Soolin - she can more than take care of herself as Avon would have known very well.

If he is anything he is a man who doesnt wear his heart on his sleeve, someone without the need to shout his every feeling from the rooftops or justify himself to anyone.


Well. As Frank Zappa said: "People will only agree with you if they already agree with you. You don't change people's minds".
 
Wolfwoman
meegat39 wrote:

Nobody knew what the effects of the particle cloud would be on the Liberator, but only Avon knew there was a chance of finding Blake and he had specific instructions to follow and a rendezvous to keep. It's easy to blame Avon, but if Blake had been in the same position, it's very possible he would have made the same decision.


I think it's very likely Blake would have made the same decision. In fact, he very nearly lost the ship himself when he ordered Jenna to take it through the gravitational vortex in Breakdown.
 
Ela
I read/skimmed through all the pages of this thread. Impossible to reply to everyone's thoughts!

To me, Avon is the most interesting character in the series.

When I first started watching, my sister asked me if I had "figured out who the 'bad guy' was yet." She then asserted that it was Avon. Which is such a simplistic view of Avon's character and not even true. He's much too complex to be simplistically labelled as the "bad" or "good" guy.

Avon's spoken thoughts mark him as a cold-hearted bastard, but his actions are otherwise. More than once he puts himself forward as one of the people who goes into a dangerous situation when he could just opt to stay on the ship. On at least one occasion he says it's cause "I don't like an unsolved mystery. He puts himself out to find out what has happened to and or/rescue crew members who are off the ship for too long. His motives are hard to discern in all this.

I love the way Paul Darrow has developed and played the character, which very much adds to the interest. The facial expressions and wordless cynical smiles in the appropriate place speak volumes!

What happened to Avon in season 4 is hard to explain. I've seen the suggestions that he became mentally unbalanced, but I'm not sure I buy it. He often still seems very much in control of himself. Maybe that's an illusion.

The ending, in Blake, is tragic and heartbreaking. Hard to know what's going through Avon's mind in that final scene. Sad
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Ela wrote:

What happened to Avon in season 4 is hard to explain.

Now there's the ultimate understatement! Grin
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
JustBrad
Ela wrote:



What happened to Avon in season 4 is hard to explain. (


Not really. The pressure and stress finally got to him and he began reacting rather than thinking. It's a classic pattern.
 
Ela
I am amused by the two opposing responses to this statement I made:
Ela wrote:
What happened to Avon in season 4 is hard to explain.


Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
Now there's the ultimate understatement! Grin


JustBrad wrote:
Not really. The pressure and stress finally got to him and he began reacting rather than thinking. It's a classic pattern.


Clearly there is a diversity of opinion about what happened to Avon in Season 4. Smile
 
peladon
JustBrad wrote:

Ela wrote:



What happened to Avon in season 4 is hard to explain. (


Not really. The pressure and stress finally got to him and he began reacting rather than thinking. It's a classic pattern.


Nope, he's not showing any form of classic stress reaction, or any discernable psychological condition. Nor is he 'reacting' any more than in any other part of the series. He calculates odd differently but thats not down to his mental state. In fact (as I've said before) there is no valid psychological path from Avon A-C and Avon D. He is a different man on all levels.
 
JannaKalderash
Personally, I don't think he started off as being anti-social.

Extremely introverted, perhaps, but not anti-social.

Speaking as an introvert myself, I find it EXTREMELY hard to get into the swim of things with people I don't know. If it's outside my comfort zone, I'm not going to budge.

Being in a strange group for me is VERY draining, and I think that the same thing applied to Avon in Season One.

There he was, first in a holding cell, then on a prison ship, full of people that he didn't know, (and really DIDN'T want to know!), all of whom saw him as stuck up, snotty, etc. The fact that they were all pretty much the lowest of the low was bound to be a factor too.

I'd find it difficult, if not impossible, to try and connect to anyone like that without coming off as snide.

And Blake was no real help; he INSISTED upon getting in Avon's face and trying to force him into a mould that simply would not fit!

Season Three would have been fine if it hadn't been for the debacle that was Terminal. Okay, it was inconsistently written in places. But Avon was finally free of the pressure that he was getting from Blake, even if he did have two new kids to put in line.

And Dayna and Tarrant WERE kids! She was a complete innocent that had never been out in space, had only had her father and foster sister for company, when suddenly two strange people show up. One of whom shoots her father in the back!

Terminal could have been handled differently; the utter pointlessness of the whole endeavor was what disappointed me.

As for Season Four, OY VEY!

I personally think that it was one heartbreak after another that started Avon down that road of thinking with his paranoia, instead of his intellect.

First, he finds out that the woman he loved, not only didn't love him, she had set him up to go to prison. And was married besides.

The other woman that he loved, and he DID TOO LOVE CALLY, died due to his stubbornness dealing with the whole Terminal debacle. I personally think that there was a subliminal signal that affected his ability to think critically in those purported messages from Blake.

He lost the two great loves of his life, (and you will never convince me otherwise), as well as the ship that he had wanted for so long, and went from one bad situation to another.

Avon was not a man to indulge himself in guilt or remorse; if he had, he'd have been an absolute wreck, psychologically speaking.

As for killing Blake, that was unavoidable. The idiot did NOT take the time out to explain himself to either Tarrant or Avon, so what were they to think?

If there had been a Season Five (and there should have been!), I could see Avon getting his act together, breaking out of prison, getting a new crew together, and using Orac to its fullest destructive potential in getting rid of the Federation. Because by that time, it was more than personal.
 
Ellen York
Janna, I agree with you about Avon being an introvert stuck in an uncomfortable situation and it was that more than being anti-social that made him prickly, particularly in the first two seasons. I'm an introvert too, and tend to go to ground when stressed. If I were stuck in a closed environment with five random co-workers, things likely Would Not End Well.
 
JannaKalderash
Same here. Especially considering that most of my co-workers are male, middle aged, not too bright, and a couple of them are obnoxious in the extreme.

Especially one incident nearly nine years ago, when I was a rookie clerk in the Dept. of Sanitation here in NY. He was my superintendent, and he was one of the most obnoxious, stupid idiotic men I have ever had the misfortune to meet.

I'd rather deal with Avon at his rudest. At least with him, I could always resort to bribery.
 
Lurena
peladon wrote:
Nope, he's not showing any form of classic stress reaction, or any discernable psychological condition. Nor is he 'reacting' any more than in any other part of the series. He calculates odd differently but thats not down to his mental state. In fact (as I've said before) there is no valid psychological path from Avon A-C and Avon D. He is a different man on all levels.

Psychology is not my field, so I can not agree, or disagree with you when it comes to signs of Avon's mental state.
However, I can imagine that all traumatic experiences must have an impact. Avon is far from emotionless.
I do agree with you about calculating odds differently and him being "Avon A-C and Avon D, a different man on all levels".
Lara&Sue's Blake's 7 stories
*No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.*
 
http://lectorisalutem.webs.com/
Lurena
JannaKalderash wrote:

Speaking as an introvert myself, I find it EXTREMELY hard to get into the swim of things with people I don't know. If it's outside my comfort zone, I'm not going to budge.

Being in a strange group for me is VERY draining, and I think that the same thing applied to Avon in Season One.

I don't think he was that introvert, otherwise he wouldn't be able to be a top computer expert and employee of the Federation. I think he closed himself for the others in order to protect himself.
I think you should not try to compare with any real human being. Avon is a drama character and one that suffers (or thrives if you like) by inconsistent scriptwriting. He is very interesting in extreme. Paul Darrow put an extra to it in a very clever way. After so many, many years we still discuss and try to explore Kerr Avon!
Please don't take my words for negative criticism and please continue telling us your thoughts.

The other woman that he loved, and he DID TOO LOVE CALLY

That was denied by the actors and writers. It seems to have been a wishful thinking of young female fans.
In my opinion Cally and Avon had a mutual understanding. She was able to "read" him and to see through him and he knew it. She obviously respected him and kept it closed for the others, for which Avon was very grateful.
You may differ from opinion, I respect that. And it keeps the matter wonderfully interesting!

If there had been a Season Five (and there should have been!), I could see Avon getting his act together, breaking out of prison, getting a new crew together, and using Orac to its fullest destructive potential in getting rid of the Federation. Because by that time, it was more than personal.

Aw, isn't this in contradiction of what you thought about Avon being introvert?
I think Avon would grab his chance, whenever the occasion occurs, to get himself the life he longed for: undisturbed, quiet and surrounded with his computer stuff. I think he wouldn't bother about the Federation, perhaps unless the human race is at stake.
Lara&Sue's Blake's 7 stories
*No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.*
 
http://lectorisalutem.webs.com/
Frankymole
JannaKalderash wrote:

Avon was not a man to indulge himself in guilt or remorse; if he had, he'd have been an absolute wreck, psychologically speaking.
He was a wreck, psychologically speaking.
 
JannaKalderash
An even worst wreck, then!
 
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