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Things you liked about Season 4
peladon
magnificat wrote:

@Trevor

One of the things I find disturbing about sociopathy is that the subject is insane and yet (from their viewpoint) logical at the same time.


Are you saying you think Avon is a sociopath?
 
magnificat
In S.4 alone, yes I think he was sociopathic.
 
Hugbot
President Solvite wrote:

Noticed a lot of dissing of the Traitor episode. (not just here but elsewhere)

This has always puzzled me as I think it brings a lot to the season.


I quite like it, although it is a bit of a curate's egg. In my opinion, it exactly mirrors the strengths and weaknesses of S4. The first half an hour is really great: Never did they achieve the grim realism that Terry Nation aimed for better than here. The exhausted, run-down rebels, the bleak landscape reminiscent of WW1 no man's land, the Nazi type Federation officers, the political scheming ... this could have been the best B7 episode ever.

And then suddenly it is nearly marred by this funny mad scientist and the incredible resurrection of Servalan (in that outrageous vulture costume). That's quite a let down after the promising first half!

For me, this is also the problem of Derek in general (which is my least favourite season, but nonetheless essential Blake, and I don't want to miss it for all the world!). We have a really great outset, but they didn't seem to take it seriously any more.
 
BradPaula
@Hugbot- Don't you equate the scientist who invented pylene 50 to the role Peter Sellers played in Doctor Strangelove- the mad scientist? I always thought so- either that or a cosplay version of Davros? -Paula
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
peladon
magnificat wrote:

In S.4 alone, yes I think he was sociopathic.


He doesn't show that many of the traits associated with it, certaily not consistently - and its rare to become one at his stage of maturity.....
 
peladon
Hugbot wrote:

President Solvite wrote:

Noticed a lot of dissing of the Traitor episode. (not just here but elsewhere)

This has always puzzled me as I think it brings a lot to the season.


I quite like it, although it is a bit of a curate's egg. In my opinion, it exactly mirrors the strengths and weaknesses of S4. The first half an hour is really great: Never did they achieve the grim realism that Terry Nation aimed for better than here. The exhausted, run-down rebels, the bleak landscape reminiscent of WW1 no man's land, the Nazi type Federation officers, the political scheming ... this could have been the best B7 episode ever.

And then suddenly it is nearly marred by this funny mad scientist and the incredible resurrection of Servalan (in that outrageous vulture costume). That's quite a let down after the promising first half!

For me, this is also the problem of Derek in general (which is my least favourite season, but nonetheless essential Blake, and I don't want to miss it for all the world!). We have a really great outset, but they didn't seem to take it seriously any more.


Agree - for a short while it looked as if S4 would produce a 'real' B7 ep - but it didnt last an it quickly went the way of the rest of the series. Sad, as an idea it held some promise - though the whole Pylene 50 stuff was poorly thought out nonsense
 
magnificat
@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...
 
Lurena
magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...


Why? I struggle to see him being a full-blown sociopath...
Lara&Sue's Blake's 7 stories
*No, I am not. I am not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going.*
 
http://lectorisalutem.webs.com/
magnificat
Hi Lurena,

I've answered here to avoid filling this thread up with my Avon thoughts.
 
Hugbot
BradPaula wrote:

@Hugbot- Don't you equate the scientist who invented pylene 50 to the role Peter Sellers played in Doctor Strangelove- the mad scientist? I always thought so- either that or a cosplay version of Davros? -Paula


I never thought of him that way, but now that you mention it ... yes, there is an obvious similiarity to Dr Strangelove! The problem is, the Peter Sellers character worked because the film is a black comedy from the very beginning, but the similar character in Traitor looks a bit out of place after the impressively realistic first half of the episode.
 
Hugbot
peladon wrote:

the whole Pylene 50 stuff was poorly thought out nonsense


Sorry to disagree, but (1) I personally like this nonsense as the glue that holds together the Derek episodes, (2) I don't think it was poorly thought out, because at last they picked up the drug theme from the first episodes. Drugging the population into obedience was once standard Federation procedure, but we haven't heard about that for a long time. It's good that the authors finally remembered; it makes the whole series look more coherent.

Oh, and Joss Whedon liked the idea, too. Serenity is not only a continuation of Firefly, but also of Traitor. The side effect of Pylene-50/Pax that causes the modified Helots' lack of "fire" was accentuated (the people on Miranda just dying because of lacking will power), and he added an even more dangerous side effect ...
Edited by Hugbot on 16 June 2014 17:44:47
 
Angry Angel
Good points Hugbot, I'd not thought of the connection to Firefly before.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
President Solvite
Re the out of place scientist

The poor tragically scarred scientist comedic and funny? I'm afraid I don't see the funny side of it, the man was in constant pain and crippled due to the sadistic nature of Servalan/Sleer.. For me Traitor is classic B7, and demonstrative of Terry's vision of a system that is really too sick and evil to be permitted to survive. this tragic figure mirrors the scarred surface of Helotrix which was no doubt a beautiful world before the Federation annexed it for the 2nd time. The war weary rebel columns contrasting with the casual cool nature of the colonial command is quite striking. In that way I found the scientist firmly nestled into an argument that proves as a whole how wrong the Federation is. What's the well worn saying? 'All that is required for evil to prevail is for enough good men to do nothing. '

The only weak part of the episode in my view is the poor explanation and return of Servalan.. It had no shock or surprise value and perhaps a more worthy story detailing her escape and fall from grace in another episode like Power or Stardrive, in which some of the more superfluous elements could have been ditched and provide a more credible backstory for her. With no disrespect to JP I don't think she was served too well by the writing in Season D and things should have gone better script wise for her. Towards that end I blame the numerous new writers, who perhaps didn't fully appreciate the B7 'verse and the more rushed production time of that particular season.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
peladon
magnificat wrote:

@ pel (sorry having problems quoting)

Do you still think he's an empathetic person in S4? I struggle to see it...



No, but then he has never been a very overtly empathic person. However there is a wide span of normal psychology between highly empathic and sociopathic. In the first three series I'd put him somewhere mid continum in fact but restrained in showing the relevant behaviours, and in S4 slightly more desensitised and disassociated but a long way from sociopathic.
 
peladon
Hugbot wrote:

peladon wrote:

the whole Pylene 50 stuff was poorly thought out nonsense


Sorry to disagree, but (1) I personally like this nonsense as the glue that holds together the Derek episodes, (2) I don't think it was poorly thought out, because at last they picked up the drug theme from the first episodes. Drugging the population into obedience was once standard Federation procedure, but we haven't heard about that for a long time. It's good that the authors finally remembered; it makes the whole series look more coherent.

Oh, and Joss Whedon liked the idea, too. Serenity is not only a continuation of Firefly, but also of Traitor. The side effect of Pylene-50/Pax that causes the modified Helots' lack of "fire" was accentuated (the people on Miranda just dying because of lacking will power), and he added an even more dangerous side effect ...


Disagree away! LOL I disagree on so many things with most people here disagreement is my normal Horizon operating modeSmile

I've never seen why a poorly thought out idea being taken up by others should make it less poorly thought through. Dont know Serenity so I cant comment on if Wheedon corrected the flaws.

The drugged populus of the first episodes were not pacified as such, if they had been then there would have been no rebellion of Earth and so no series. Sedated certainly but thats not the same as having your agressive or self preservation instincts overridden.

I worked out why my immediate reaction on seeing it was 'Oh dear' a long time ago and included it in I&R. I wont go into much detail here , it was a while ago and I'd need to go back to my notes for the details... However if I am recalling it correctly:

P50 can only be deliverd one shot at a time - not seeded in air or water or food - not much use if you have limited troops left and need to spread it quickly over a load of worlds that threaten to unite against you.

It appears that you need to be close to the subject to be able to target them - so if they stay out of sight they can pin you down on a single world for years - pretty much what is happening on Helotrix - wearing on all concerned but the Federation has the added burden of keeping their troops fed, their weapons working and their ships fuelled a long way from home in a galaxy wrecked by the war.

P50 is not selective - lose a consignment of it and it an be turned against you with little effort. In fact it would only take a couple of disaffected troopers or disguised rebel with access to it and Space Command could be pacified. Therefore there has to be an antidode well known and effective - which means sooner or later someone is going to come along and take it

If what we seen in Warlord is correct then pacified people are not much use for anything productive - so they are unlikley to be able to be used to fuel further expansion.

There are other reasons but those will do.
Its not a weapon that would fuel a rapid resurrgence of the Federation or the claimed extensive reclaimation of lost territory.
 
magnificat
@ Peladon: agree avon was never overtly empathetic, but in s.4 he seemed progressively less empathetic inwardly (Plaxton/Restal/Soolin/Blake) to boot.
 
briggsy1
Things I like about series 4.. the music they play aboard the Space Princess in Orbit. Very uplifting - would be perfect kind of background music to listen to in lifts & shopping centres.
 
Frankymole
P50 can only be deliverd one shot at a time - not seeded in air or water or food - not much use if you have limited troops left and need to spread it quickly over a load of worlds that threaten to unite against you.
That's not the case by the time of "Warlord" - indeed it's the fact that it will imminently be mass-delivered that prompts Avon to attempt an alliance (so he tells the assembled leaders, anyway). But yes, the "suppressants" that everyone is dosed with in series A in the city and in the prison ship could be something like Prozac, merely suppressing feelings of depression and discontent which may be common amongst the lower grades of any dystopia (probably why they prescribe so much of it in 21st century Britain).
Edited by Frankymole on 17 June 2014 12:33:22
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
P50 can only be deliverd one shot at a time - not seeded in air or water or food - not much use if you have limited troops left and need to spread it quickly over a load of worlds that threaten to unite against you.


Sorry Peladon, but you're mistaken here.

From "Warlord":
AVON: "Originally the stuff was administered by medical laser, but now they have developed variants. It can be fed into your reservoirs or even into the air that you breathe."

Hence the whole reason Avon forms an anti-Federation alliance in the first place.... he feels threatened. Avon looks after No 1.... with the increasing threat of Pylene 50, he's realised it's the time to take action.
 
Hugbot
President Solvite wrote:

Re the out of place scientist

The poor tragically scarred scientist comedic and funny? I'm afraid I don't see the funny side of it, the man was in constant pain and crippled due to the sadistic nature of Servalan/Sleer..


You are right, Forbus is basically a tragic character (and he is not mad either!). It is only that his appearance and mannerism don't work for me (call it his 'Strangelove-ness' ); they do not convey a sense of tragedy, but evoke the image of all those funny mad scientists in old films. When it works for you, that's fine; so you can enjoy Traitor even more than I do (after all, it is a good episode!). It's similar to the Pylene-50 stuff - that works for me, but not for Peladon. In that case, I am the lucky one who can enjoy the episodes in question.Grin
 
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