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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

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Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

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Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

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Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Did Avon love Blake (non romantically)
Panna
In some old interview years ago (Hermit has the transcript) Paul Darrow called it a 'love of a kind,' if I remember correctly.

His reaction to thinking Blake was alive in Terminal I always found mixed. At first his face lights up, then it sours. Dark comedy IMO.
"You'd never get a cat to be a servant. You ever see a cat return a stick? "Hey, man! You threw the stick, you go get it yourself! I'm busy! If you wanted the stick so bad, why'd you throw it away in the first place?"
 
Panna
Does anyone think that Blake loved Avon-non romantically? If so, was that his downfall?
"You'd never get a cat to be a servant. You ever see a cat return a stick? "Hey, man! You threw the stick, you go get it yourself! I'm busy! If you wanted the stick so bad, why'd you throw it away in the first place?"
 
mrsbookmark
Panna wrote:

Does anyone think that Blake loved Avon-non romantically? If so, was that his downfall?


love... In the sense that he valued, admired, Avon more than he openly admitted until that exchange at the end of Star One.

I always had the impression that Blake was a bit of a scarred revolutionary. It's established that Blake used to be a rebel leader before what with the brainwashing and all that but we are not shown what kind of 'hero' figure he was first go round. I think that maybe he was more brash, more courageous, than he is now. He' still inspires people but his fire flickers in and out. So he admires Avon because Avon had that intelligence and presence and in some ways that keeps Blake going-even when they disagree. I think Blake needs Avon psychologically Nd would fall apart(maybe does) without him.
 
meegat39
Panna wrote:

Does anyone think that Blake loved Avon-non romantically? If so, was that his downfall?


I don't think there's any doubt, after all that "Avon, I was waiting for youuuuuu" says it all really. When he should have stopped he kept going and his dying word "Avooooooon". Also in Countdown when he threatens Del Grant to ensure Avon's safety. I think that Avon and Blake both respected and valued the other (and more), the main difference is that Blake was more honest about his true feelings.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
meegat39 wrote:
I don't think there's any doubt, after all that "Avon, I was waiting for youuuuuu" says it all really. When he should have stopped he kept going and his dying word "Avooooooon". Also in Countdown when he threatens Del Grant to ensure Avon's safety. I think that Avon and Blake both respected and valued the other (and more), the main difference is that Blake was more honest about his true feelings.


Meegat, Blake just doesn’t realise how much Avon has changed since he last saw him. He didn’t expect him to shoot. Remember Avon occasionally playfully held Blake at gunpoint e.g. Cygnus Alpha.

But I see nothing in Blake’s dialogue to suggest any ‘love’ towards Avon. Just the usual impatience. He’s listened to the reports and realises Avon could be a useful ally; after all he has Orac and a teleport system. Blake might also know that Avon has the antidote to Pylene 50 (Avon tried to form his Rebel Alliance in “Warlord”, and I imagine this has got around the grapevine). And Blake wants to get on with it. Hence continuing to walk to Avon. And his final look at Avon before his knees buckle is not one of love. It’s a dirty scowl, to make Avon realise he’s got it all wrong.

Maybe time has made Blake forget the hostility between him and Avon, and the fact Avon has a barely-disguised loathing of him. As Blake realised in Star One ( “You really do hate me, don’t you?” ).

Is there a love between Blake and Avon? Certainly not. Are they friends? Not really. Acquaintances is a better word. Do they realise the value of each other, and will use the other to achieve their own aims? Yes.

That’s my two pennies of opinion in any case.
Edited by trevor travis on 12 January 2015 12:41:19
 
meegat39
trevor travis wrote:

meegat39 wrote:
I don't think there's any doubt, after all that "Avon, I was waiting for youuuuuu" says it all really. When he should have stopped he kept going and his dying word "Avooooooon". Also in Countdown when he threatens Del Grant to ensure Avon's safety. I think that Avon and Blake both respected and valued the other (and more), the main difference is that Blake was more honest about his true feelings.


Meegat, Blake just doesn’t realise how much Avon has changed since he last saw him. He didn’t expect him to shoot. Remember Avon occasionally playfully held Blake at gunpoint e.g. Cygnus Alpha.

But I see nothing in Blake’s dialogue to suggest any ‘love’ towards Avon. Just the usual impatience. He’s listened to the reports and realises Avon could be a useful ally; after all he has Orac and a teleport system. Blake might also know that Avon has the antidote to Pylene 50 (Avon tried to form his Rebel Alliance in “Warlord”, and I imagine this has got around the grapevine). And Blake wants to get on with it. Hence continuing to walk to Avon. And his final look at Avon before his knees buckle is not one of love. It’s a dirty scowl, to make Avon realise he’s got it all wrong.

Maybe time has made Blake forget the hostility between him and Avon, and the fact Avon has a barely-disguised loathing of him. As Blake realised in Star One ( “You really do hate me, don’t you?” ).

Is there a love between Blake and Avon? Certainly not. Are they friends? Not really. Acquaintances is a better word. Do you realise the value of each other, and will use the other to achieve their own aims? Yes.

That’s my two pennies of opinion in any case.


Okay TT. I hear what you are saying. But I cannot agree with you. Frown
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
meegat39 wrote:
Okay TT. I hear what you are saying. But I cannot agree with you. Frown


That's OK Meegat. I don't think we'll ever agree on this one. Pfft
 
JustBrad
Panna wrote:

Does anyone think that Blake loved Avon-non romantically? If so, was that his downfall?


If so, he had a funny way of showing it. I'm not talking about GP, but about the preceding two years (or more), in which the search for Blake was hardly a priority.

Compare Avon's attitude re the search for Blake to Band of Brothers (true story), where four soldiers sneak off alone behind enemy lines, and against orders, to rescue their wounded comrade.
 
meegat39
JustBrad wrote:

Panna wrote:

Does anyone think that Blake loved Avon-non romantically? If so, was that his downfall?


If so, he had a funny way of showing it. I'm not talking about GP, but about the preceding two years (or more), in which the search for Blake was hardly a priority.

Compare Avon's attitude re the search for Blake to Band of Brothers (true story), where four soldiers sneak off alone behind enemy lines, and against orders, to rescue their wounded comrade.


Read the question again Brad! Cool
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Frankymole
There's a thin line between love and hate. And Avon possibly loved Blake and hated him in equal measure - or rather admired his drive and clear leaderships skills (maybe with jealousy, since Avon had few such skills in manipulation himself) but despised his idealism.

It's possibly to have both emotions at once, and many more besides.

There was no "bromance" though. Maybe Avon had a kind of rivalry with Blake like a sibling rivalry as he saw a kind of idealism in him that Avon himself had discarded. They had a lot in common, more than they'd both admit, in the way they thought about things. And Avon clearly regarded Tarrant as an annoying whiny younger brother.
 
Panna
I always thought something deeper was going on than what we see. Otherwise, why would the ending mean anything at all? It's possible to love and hate someone. That's what it seemed like to me.
Why would Avon go catatonic after killing Blake if he only hated Blake? He didn't go catatonic after killing Travis, nor after the death of Cally whom he seemed to like.
Terry Nation described them as two halves of one character if I recall.
I think them seemingly using each other was just subterfuge.
I also think he had a love-hate thing with Servalan, but that's another topic.
"You'd never get a cat to be a servant. You ever see a cat return a stick? "Hey, man! You threw the stick, you go get it yourself! I'm busy! If you wanted the stick so bad, why'd you throw it away in the first place?"
 
peladon
I suppose it all comes down to what you mean by love. If you take it to mean some deep personal commitment or bond I’d say no, if you mean some sense of responsibility I’d say yes.

I think the evidence we have suggests that the whole group share the bond often seen within small military groups, and it’s strongest between the ones who routinely risk themselves together and are most frequently reliant on each other. Therefore it’s strongest between Blake, Avon, Jenna and Cally. Gan can’t be relied upon (because of the limiter) and Vila is too unpredictable. Blake and Avon also have other shared characteristics, like intelligence and past experience, which drawn them together but they have very different philosophies which is a barrier to real agreement between them. Avon has a lot a lot of survival value to Blake, though Blake doesn’t for Avon, which adds another dimension. Avon also seems to have some disinclination towards abandonment and betrayal of those he knows well, as does Blake.

Once the war was over the situation has changed radically with regards to the group and their shared enemy the Federation and Avon responds to that. If Blake is not in active danger then Avon will not feel it necessary to seek him out, however he wouldn’t leave him at obvious risk and if there was uncertainty about Blake’s fate he would seek to resolve it.

‘Blake’ makes no sense on any psychological or practical level at all (pure purple plotting) and so using it to inform an understanding of the relationship between the two men seems to me to be akin to using the sight of clouds as proof of candyfloss in the sky.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
peladon wrote:

I suppose it all comes down to what you mean by love. If you take it to mean some deep personal commitment or bond I’d say no, if you mean some sense of responsibility I’d say yes.

I think the evidence we have suggests that the whole group share the bond often seen within small military groups... Blake and Avon also have other shared characteristics, like intelligence and past experience, which drawn them together but they have very different philosophies which is a barrier to real agreement between them. Avon has a lot a lot of survival value to Blake, though Blake doesn’t for Avon, which adds another dimension. Avon also seems to have some disinclination towards abandonment and betrayal of those he knows well, as does Blake...

Agree with everything you say there, Peladon; it's a close friendship that has the elements of something deeper, but is not in itself especially deep because of limiting factors.

‘Blake’ makes no sense on any psychological or practical level at all (pure purple plotting) and so using it to inform an understanding of the relationship between the two men seems to me to be akin to using the sight of clouds as proof of candyfloss in the sky.

Completely 100% agree with that, and I do love the illustration! Grin
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Panna wrote:
Why would Avon go catatonic after killing Blake if he only hated Blake? He didn't go catatonic after killing Travis, nor after the death of Cally whom he seemed to like.


Timing. Avon has been on the point of the abyss for several episodes. And it only lasted a couple of minutes.

And it was a big deal to shoot Roj Blake. Avon didn't ever particularly like him, but there's what he stood for. Blake the man wasn't that impressive - Avon knew that better than almost anyone. But Blake the idea was something else.

In fact, who knows, Avon himself might have started to remember Blake the idea rather than Blake the man. Maybe that's what Avon is protecting at the end by standing astride Blake - the idea.
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
Agree with everything you say there, Peladon; it's a close friendship that has the elements of something deeper, but is not in itself especially deep because of limiting factors.


Such as Avon hating Blake's guts Grin Grin
 
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
Agree with everything you say there, Peladon; it's a close friendship that has the elements of something deeper, but is not in itself especially deep because of limiting factors.


Such as Avon hating Blake's guts Grin Grin


The opposite of love is not hate. Love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. The opposite of love is indifference, and Avon was never indifferent about Blake.
 
Frankymole
peladon wrote:
I think the evidence we have suggests that the whole group share the bond often seen within small military groups, and it’s strongest between the ones who routinely risk themselves together and are most frequently reliant on each other. Therefore it’s strongest between Blake, Avon, Jenna and Cally. Gan can’t be relied upon (because of the limiter) and Vila is too unpredictable. Blake and Avon also have other shared characteristics, like intelligence and past experience, which drawn them together but they have very different philosophies which is a barrier to real agreement between them.
Interesting. Dorian's words about the group bonded by time and pain also feed into that idea.

peladon wrote:
Avon also seems to have some disinclination towards abandonment and betrayal of those he knows well, as does Blake.
Blake's words to Del grant about what will happen if Avon doesn't make it back alive, and also Avon's attitude to betrayal (not least by Anna Grant) do indeed demonstrate such commitment.

peladon wrote:
Once the war was over the situation has changed radically with regards to the group and their shared enemy the Federation and Avon responds to that. If Blake is not in active danger then Avon will not feel it necessary to seek him out, however he wouldn’t leave him at obvious risk and if there was uncertainty about Blake’s fate he would seek to resolve it.
Avon did say that he didn't like an unsolved mystery.
 
JustBrad
Panna wrote:


Why would Avon go catatonic after killing Blake if he only hated Blake?


The question of whether Avon loved or hated Blake aside, Avon did not go to GP to kill Blake. Avon seems as surprised as Blake that the first shot was fired. Avon's deepest fear (IMHO) is betrayal, especially after ROD. Confronted with evidence that Blake betrayed him, Avon reacted. Killing Blake was as much a reflex action as killing Anna had been, and while Avon wasn't quite catatonic after shooting Anna, he clearly didn't care if he lived or died.
 
mrsbookmark
trevor travis wrote:

Panna wrote:
Why would Avon go catatonic after killing Blake if he only hated Blake? He didn't go catatonic after killing Travis, nor after the death of Cally whom he seemed to like.


In fact, who knows, Avon himself might have started to remember Blake the idea rather than Blake the man. Maybe that's what Avon is protecting at the end by standing astride Blake - the idea.


I would agree with that. Maybe not having the real Blake around made him start to believe in the idea more.
 
Panna
Well, Tynus betrayed Avon and Avon didn't go catatonic then. Not even after he shoved him into that machine.
Anyway, in the Sidgewick room interview back in 1981 (transcript is on Hermit) Paul Darrow admits it's a love of a kind, like David and Jonathan. I know Paul Darrow seems to have changed his tune from time to time, but I'm going with what he seemed to think at the time, because it probably influenced how he shaped the character.
I don't think Avon realized he did love Blake (perhaps like his brother) until it was too late. So we get that sentimental gesture of standing over Blake's body as a final act. (Unless he survived of course, but I don't think he thought he would).
"You'd never get a cat to be a servant. You ever see a cat return a stick? "Hey, man! You threw the stick, you go get it yourself! I'm busy! If you wanted the stick so bad, why'd you throw it away in the first place?"
 
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