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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Did Avon love Blake (non romantically)
Travisina
Asteria occulta wrote:

... as for Orac, I agree with Vila. It is just a rat in a box.


Really? And not, as the name suggests, an Oracle?

Jenna and Cally? Better not get me started on them or we'll be here all night.


Oh go on, at least give us some idea of their Homeric equivalents!

PS smileys! I hate these guys!


Yes, they do have a tendency to pop up where you don't intend them. You've got the option below to disable them. 'Preview reply' is your friend!
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Asteria occulta
Yes, great post Asteria! Your Homeric parallels are most interesting. Happy





I stand by my observation that origins of the word 'love' in the English language have to impact upon its application. The word covers a great many aspects of a relationship, from simply 'looking out for each other' without any personal liking for each others' personalities right up to romantic love and many degrees of emotional connection inbetween. If you make up a packed lunch for someone every day, you're showing love by taking an action that supports them - but it doesn't necessarily mean you love them in a deep, emotional way.


Thank you SD, I'm glad you liked it.
(Erm ... why is that smiley happy? Looks like something being turned on a spit)

Pinpointing something as tricky and elusive as a sentiment is really hard, and here we are talking about a dynamic relationship. Since the word 'love' has multiple meanings it can serve simultaneously as useful code and as starting point for an interesting discussion (you must have had this discussion so many times ...)
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Asteria occulta wrote:

(Erm ... why is that smiley happy? Looks like something being turned on a spit)

You don't recognise Slave? It was the Scorpio onboard computer in s4... Happy
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Asteria occulta
Really? And not, as the name suggests, an Oracle?


And what makes you think ancient oracles were better than rats in boxes?

Oh go on, at least give us some idea of their Homeric equivalents!


Oh, all right! You asked for it!
Jenna is Athena, a wise councellor, cool, collected and in control, in the center of things like Arachne, hands on the helm, with a gleam in her eyes as she prepares to rush headlong into another of Blake's hare brained schemes (it is my firm belief that one of the things she found attractive in him were these hare brained schemes of his - suited her own restless spirit), desisive when needed, looking as black as thunder when crossed (you don't want to cross neither of them, you really don't), cleaning the mess the 'epic heroes' had created and saving the day. Athena never abandoned her protege, Odysseus, and Jenna didn't abandon Gan nor Blake. Athena was a warrior goddess and Jenna was a warrior too. The woman had guts. Athena helped building the Argo and Jenna had a special relationship with the Liberator (I'm biased, can you tell?). And no, she is no jealous Hera.
Cally, now ... Which Cally?

Yes, they do have a tendency to pop up where you don't intend them. You've got the option below to disable them. 'Preview reply' is your friend!


I refuse to be intimidated. I will prevail!
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Asteria occulta
You don't recognise Slave? It was the Scorpio onboard computer in s4...


It is because I recognise it that I' m at a loss. That computer didn't
seem very happy to me
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Travisina
Asteria occulta wrote:

Really? And not, as the name suggests, an Oracle?


And what makes you think ancient oracles were better than rats in boxes?


LOL Unsure

Oh, all right! You asked for it!
Jenna is Athena, a wise councellor, cool, collected and in control, in the center of things like Arachne, hands on the helm, with a gleam in her eyes as she prepares to rush headlong into another of Blake's hare brained schemes (it is my firm belief that one of the things she found attractive in him were these hare brained schemes of his - suited her own restless spirit), desisive when needed, looking as black as thunder when crossed (you don't want to cross neither of them, you really don't), cleaning the mess the 'epic heroes' had created and saving the day. Athena never abandoned her protege, Odysseus, and Jenna didn't abandon Gan nor Blake. Athena was a warrior goddess and Jenna was a warrior too. The woman had guts. Athena helped building the Argo and Jenna had a special relationship with the Liberator (I'm biased, can you tell?). And no, she is no jealous Hera.


That's a brilliant description of Jenna!

Cally, now ... Which Cally?


No Homeric equivalent of an alien telepathic guerilla nurse?Wink
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Asteria occulta
No Homeric equivalent of an alien telepathic guerilla nurse?


Poor Homer was just a genious epic poet, not a miracle worker!
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
magnificat
Imho he developed a grudging love for Blake in the Nation episodes

but

in the Boucher episodes Avon straightforwardly disliked Blake, and became determined to get rid of him halfway through s2.
 
meegat39
magnificat wrote:

Imho he developed a grudging love for Blake in the Nation episodes

but

in the Boucher episodes Avon straightforwardly disliked Blake, and became determined to get rid of him halfway through s2.


That's an interesting take on things. I'll have to have another look based on this ...
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
But arguably the biggest aggravation between them is in "Redemption".... a Terry Nation episode.

That episode nearly ends up in a fight. At the end, Avon's look seems to be... this can wait for later. Later happened on Gauda Prime.
 
trevor travis
However, I do agree there is a difference between Seasons A & B.

In Season A, Avon is the main voice of opposition on the Liberator, but will come up trumps when required. I don't ever see it as more as a marriage of convenience, though.

During Season B, it does slowly change to hostility towards Blake, concluding with "I want to be free... of him" in Star One.

I don't see Avon ever showing a shred of love towards Blake.

For me, it's yes for Avon towards: Orac (a proper man/supercomputer bromance there!!!), Cally, Servalan (although later withdrawn), Vila (although in the same way a man loves a dog - Avon doesn't see Vila as an equal!), Anna Grant, maybe Meegat, maybe Soolin.

Definitely NOT Blake Grin
Edited by trevor travis on 12 March 2014 12:44:36
 
Obsidian
I've gone 'yes' because they had some little smiley things going between them every now and again and also because they stood very close to one another at times within each other's "space" as it were. You've got to have a more than comfortable familiarity for that. To me the body language says yes. Of course, that's got to be partly the directors' doing, non? Would love to expand on this giving series/episode etc., but no rest for the wicked. I'll be back...Grin
Don't philosophise at me you electronic moron!GrinFrown
 
http://www.seraglio-design.com
trevor travis
Obsidian wrote:

I've gone 'yes' because they had some little smiley things going between them every now and again and also because they stood very close to one another at times within each other's "space" as it were. You've got to have a more than comfortable familiarity for that. To me the body language says yes. Of course, that's got to be partly the directors' doing, non? Would love to expand on this giving series/episode etc., but no rest for the wicked. I'll be back...Grin


But beware Avon's smile... Grin
 
Asteria occulta
trevor travis wrote :

During Season B, it does slowly change to hostility towards Blake, concluding with "I want to be free... of him" in Star One.


Yours is a legitimate interpretation, of course, but I read it differently. Yes, there is resentment here, but what kind of resentment?
Avon doesn't hate Blake, he hates what Blake does to him. Pushes him, goads him, stings him like a gadfly, forces him out of his comfort zone, challenges the idea Avon has about himself and expects Avon to do the same. It's something Tyce said. Blake fights, he never gives up. Pushing people to change their perspective is second nature to him and this can stir up ugly feelings (who wouldn't feel resentment? I know I would)
Avon feels upset and disorientated and strikes back. He finds Blake an irritating, constant pain in his rear and just wants to swat the d#$&@% fly. Therefore, he chooses words he knows will hurt. Blake sees this as hatred, too, but only momentarily and in the heat of the fight. Understandable reaction.
So, I think Avon hates the action, not the person. Splitting hairs here? Maybe, but I find it absorbing.
(Love-hate is trully a beautiful combination, guaranteed to send shivers up and down someone's spine)

I also think Avon is a worthy opponent and a challenge to Blake. He fights back and he fights well. He is not cowered, he is not blinded by devotion, he does not have Jenna's desperate determination to believe in something bigger than herself. So Blake values him. People like Blake value worthy opponents. They judge their own worth by the worth of their opponents and use them as whetstones to hone their abilities. And from that to respect and a kind of love the distance is
infinitesimal.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
Avon's problem is that he knows that the longer he stays with Blake, the more his reputation as an outlaw will grow and the higher the bounty on his head will become. But he is unwilling to abandon his 'share' of Liberator and his chance of taking command of the ship. Whilst he contemplates early on getting rid of Blake the first chance he gets, by Season B he's come to the realisation that helping Blake's crusade is the only way he'll get his hands on the ship.
 
meegat39
Asteria occulta wrote:

trevor travis wrote :

During Season B, it does slowly change to hostility towards Blake, concluding with "I want to be free... of him" in Star One.


Yours is a legitimate interpretation, of course, but I read it differently. Yes, there is resentment here, but what kind of resentment?
Avon doesn't hate Blake, he hates what Blake does to him. Pushes him, goads him, stings him like a gadfly, forces him out of his comfort zone, challenges the idea Avon has about himself and expects Avon to do the same. It's something Tyce said. Blake fights, he never gives up. Pushing people to change their perspective is second nature to him and this can stir up ugly feelings (who wouldn't feel resentment? I know I would)
Avon feels upset and disorientated and strikes back. He finds Blake an irritating, constant pain in his rear and just wants to swat the d#$&@% fly. Therefore, he chooses words he knows will hurt. Blake sees this as hatred, too, but only momentarily and in the heat of the fight. Understandable reaction.
So, I think Avon hates the action, not the person. Splitting hairs here? Maybe, but I find it absorbing.
(Love-hate is trully a beautiful combination, guaranteed to send shivers up and down someone's spine)

I also think Avon is a worthy opponent and a challenge to Blake. He fights back and he fights well. He is not cowered, he is not blinded by devotion, he does not have Jenna's desperate determination to believe in something bigger than herself. So Blake values him. People like Blake value worthy opponents. They judge their own worth by the worth of their opponents and use them as whetstones to hone their abilities. And from that to respect and a kind of love the distance is
infinitesimal.


Your summary is brilliant! It's just exactly what I think, although I've never put it so succinctly into words like you have here. Totally agree! @ Obsidian I also agree about the body language.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Sopron
Obsidian wrote:

I've gone 'yes' because they had some little smiley things going between them every now and again and also because they stood very close to one another at times within each other's "space" as it were. You've got to have a more than comfortable familiarity for that. To me the body language says yes. Of course, that's got to be partly the directors' doing, non?


Well now, the intrusion on personal space can be taken either way. If you 'love' the person romantically, there is no problem, but I would maintain that Avon is the kind of bloke who wouldn't even allow close friends or family within touching distance other than briefly and when convention required it. On the other hand, being so defensive of his own personal space, he would recognise the implied threat of encroaching on Blake's, wouldn't he?

As for the smile, I'm with TT, you can never tell whether it's amusement, fear, or a distraction from the knife heading towards your back! GrinAngry
 
peladon
Asteria occulta wrote:

trevor travis wrote :

During Season B, it does slowly change to hostility towards Blake, concluding with "I want to be free... of him" in Star One.


Yours is a legitimate interpretation, of course, but I read it differently. Yes, there is resentment here, but what kind of resentment?
Avon doesn't hate Blake, he hates what Blake does to him. Pushes him, goads him, stings him like a gadfly, forces him out of his comfort zone, challenges the idea Avon has about himself and expects Avon to do the same. It's something Tyce said. Blake fights, he never gives up. Pushing people to change their perspective is second nature to him and this can stir up ugly feelings (who wouldn't feel resentment? I know I would)
Avon feels upset and disorientated and strikes back. He finds Blake an irritating, constant pain in his rear and just wants to swat the d#$&@% fly. Therefore, he chooses words he knows will hurt. Blake sees this as hatred, too, but only momentarily and in the heat of the fight. Understandable reaction.
So, I think Avon hates the action, not the person. Splitting hairs here? Maybe, but I find it absorbing.
(Love-hate is trully a beautiful combination, guaranteed to send shivers up and down someone's spine)

I also think Avon is a worthy opponent and a challenge to Blake. He fights back and he fights well. He is not cowered, he is not blinded by devotion, he does not have Jenna's desperate determination to believe in something bigger than herself. So Blake values him. People like Blake value worthy opponents. They judge their own worth by the worth of their opponents and use them as whetstones to hone their abilities. And from that to respect and a kind of love the distance is
infinitesimal.


I'd say its a clash of world views or political philosophy that overlays a basic similarity ebtween the two men. At the personal level they have a lot in common but they just dont see others and society in the same way. Avon possibly respects Blake as a man but not what he wants to do, in fact before the Star One instance there isnt really any evidence that Avon dislikes Blake as a person.

BTW I tend to read the Redemption exchange as the first indication that Blake is losing his touch and Avons recognition of the fact.
 
Asteria occulta
I'd say its a clash of world views or political philosophy that overlays a basic similarity ebtween the two men. At the personal level they have a lot in common but they just dont see others and society in the same way. Avon possibly respects Blake as a man but not what he wants to do,


I agree that they are similar in many ways and I believe they both know it. But Avon doesn't like this. He's not in denial, but he fights the realisation and resents the fact that Blake sees through him, or sees (and values) things Avon despises in himself. So he tries to prove to both of them that he is right and Blake is wrong. And this leads to fireworks. He has constructed his self-image and feels comfortable in it. Blake had his own self-image demolished, so he is more ready to question who he is and who other people are, whereas Avon was spared the ordeal.
The similarities between then allow Avon to understand Blake and pinpoint his faults and mistakes. Are they mistakes he's afraid he might make under the same circumstances? After all he shows the same ability for obsession and singlemindedness in the case of Anna, no to mention a degree of cruelty Blake is incapable of (there is a cruel streak in Avon Blake lacks).On the other hand, this cruel streak manifested itself after Blake's disappearence, so maybe it was Blake's presense that kept it at bay. Also, Blake isn't motivated by revenge, Avon is.

Is Avon a political creature? Does he have a political philosophy or even something that resembles it? Does Blake, for that matter? We all have our own world view, but I'd hesitate to call it political philosophy. Even in Blake's case, and he is the only one I'd call politicized, I don't see much of a political philosophy in evidence.

in fact before the Star One instance there isnt really any evidence that Avon dislikes Blake as a person.


That's why I see Avon's jibe as a deliberate choise of words
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
Despite everything, it's interesting how they both share a laugh at the end of Trial.
 
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