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Did Avon love Blake (non romantically)
meegat39
[quote]Asteria occulta wrote:

[quote] Also, Blake isn't motivated by revenge, Avon is.
[quote]

I can't agree here. This exchange from Spacefall would indicate that one of Blake's motivations for taking on the federation was revenge.

AVON I thought you were probably insane.
BLAKE That's possible! They butchered my family, my friends. They murdered my past and gave me tranquilized dreams.
JENNA At least you're still alive.
BLAKE No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man.

I suppose this point is open to debate, but that's my interpretation.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
I agree... Blake does want revenge against the Federation. With the Liberator, he could clear off and stay out of harm's way.... but it's payback time.

Revenge is one of the key themes of Season A. Blake wants revenge against the Federation, while Travis wants revenge against Blake.

The characters of Blake and Travis (Mark I) are much closer than either are to Avon. Avon is largely motivated by money or power, not revenge, the expection being "Rumours", although in Avon's case, it's more personal.

Actually Travis, in a complex way, probably loves Blake more than Avon. Travis is certainly obsessed by Blake, in a way that Avon is not.

Apart from "Terminal" (as I said before, something must happen between "Death-Watch" and "Terminal" to explain Avon's atypical pursuit of Blake in this episode), Avon is very indifferent to getting Blake back on board. It's the last thing he wants... as he says in "Blake". He'd even form an alliance with Zukan before Blake. Blake is a Z priority to Avon.
 
meegat39
trevor travis wrote:

I agree... Blake does want revenge against the Federation. With the Liberator, he could clear off and stay out of harm's way.... but it's payback time.

Revenge is one of the key themes of Season A. Blake wants revenge against the Federation, while Travis wants revenge against Blake.

The characters of Blake and Travis (Mark I) are much closer than either are to Avon. Avon is largely motivated by money or power, not revenge, the expection being "Rumours", although in Avon's case, it's more personal.

Actually Travis, in a complex way, probably loves Blake more than Avon. Travis is certainly obsessed by Blake, in a way that Avon is not.

Apart from "Terminal" (as I said before, something must happen between "Death-Watch" and "Terminal" to explain Avon's atypical pursuit of Blake in this episode), Avon is very indifferent to getting Blake back on board. It's the last thing he wants... as he says in "Blake". He'd even form an alliance with Zukan before Blake. Blake is a Z priority to Avon.


Yes another time Blake openly speaks of revenge is in Seek Locate destroy, when he plans to hit K -14 and says "one for Cally".
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
guiser
If you interpret Blake's motive as revenge, then it is a very abstract kind of revenge. An animus against "the system" rather than individual people per se. He never goes after personal enemies like Travis or the people who killed his family, even when given the opportunity (and the last point is crucial and shows he is in no way Travis counterpart). By contrast Avon desires personal revenge when seeking out Shrinker.

I find animus against "the system" to be something so far removed from my normal notion of revengeful feelings (highly personal), that I can't see it as the same kind of emotion at all. I think Blake hates the system (and its minions) at least to the extend that he sometimes displays noticeable contempt for it (and them), but that isn't quite the same thing and has wider causes than his own suffering and that of his nearest and dearest.

Also, with his history of political activism, Blake was opposed to the system already, before we have evidence of personal reasons for this to be the case. Surely if Blake had not been captured, mindwiped, had his family and comrades killed etc etc, he would still have been fighting the Federation regardless?

In addition, I wouldn't necessarily interpret what Blake says to Avon and Jenna early on as some kind of mission statement. Blake was trying to get them on his side and personal motives are always easier for people to understand than ideological motives. I'm sure he felt very angry about the deaths of his family etc but that doesn't mean he was primarily motivated by that anger.

It is dangerous to go up against a totaliltarian state, so you need very strong motivation to even attempt it. Sometimes this takes the form of strong ideological or moral beliefs, rather than personal motivations. However, anyone who goes up against a totalitarian state will suffer personally and react emotionally to this. That does not mean that their emotional reaction to personal suffering becomes their primary motivation or even a motive at all. That all depends on the person and the situation. I see no reason why the strong ideological or moral beliefs of such people should suddenly evaporate and cease to motivate them, to be completely replaced by strong negative personal emotions instead.

There really seems to be a tendency in popular culture to try to normalise the motivations of "political" types by giving them deeply personal motivations for initiating their struggle. I don't like that at all and I approve of the fact that Blake is seen to be politically motivated before he experiences his most drastic personal setbacks.
Edited by guiser on 15 March 2014 19:33:06
 
Asteria occulta
meegat39 said

I can't agree here. This exchange from Spacefall would indicate that one of Blake's motivations for taking on the federation was revenge.
AVON I thought you were probably insane.
BLAKE That's possible! They butchered my family, my friends. They murdered my past and gave me tranquilized dreams.
JENNA At least you're still alive.
BLAKE No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man.
I suppose this point is open to debate, but that's my interpretation.


Debate! Oh, goodie!

If I were to complete Blake's centence, it'd go thike this
'They butchered my family, my friends. They murdered my past and gave me tranquilized dreams, that's why I am half mad with grief and anger and I look insane to you'

Avon calls Blake insane. The other man's motivation is incomprehensible to him, so he uses a word people use when faced with something they don't quite grasp. Blake is angry and responds angrily, but he doesn't deny the accusation. Maybe he doubts himself and his motives too. I think his anger forms part of these motives, but the main motive is his concern for the fate of others, a fate he suffered himself and doesn't want more people to experience. There is passion here, fiery and all-consuming. Is revenge part of it? Undeniably. Is revenge the main motive? Absolutely not. Is it a big part of his motivation? I'd say No.
This is a tortured soul. And he's lost more than the love of his life, he's lost his life.

Also, what guiser said.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Asteria occulta
trevor travis wrote

I agree... Blake does want revenge against the Federation. With the Liberator, he could clear off and stay out of harm's way.... but it's payback time.


Ah, now I understand what's the problem. I don't call this revenge, I call it legitimate defense of a betrayed subject. The Federation has forfeited it's right to govern, because it stoped caring for the wellbeing of its people, so it is time for a change of regime. According to Rousseau, When the government exceeds the boundaries set in place by the people, it is the mission of the people to abolish such government and begin anew.

Apart from "Terminal" (as I said before, something must happen between "Death-Watch" and "Terminal" to explain Avon's atypical pursuit of Blake in this episode), Avon is very indifferent to getting Blake back on board. It's the last thing he wants... as he says in "Blake". He'd even form an alliance with Zukan before Blake. Blake is a Z priority to Avon.


I know many will disagree with me, but there goes.
Avon wants to prove himself to Blake (not to mention to himself). Running to him to save the day is a recognition of failure and he'd be damned before he does that.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Asteria occulta
guiser wrote
If you interpret Blake's motive ... his most drastic personal setbacks.

Thank you, guiser, my thoughts exactly
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
President Solvite
meegat39 wrote:

Asteria occulta wrote:

trevor travis wrote :

During Season B, it does slowly change to hostility towards Blake, concluding with "I want to be free... of him" in Star One.


Yours is a legitimate interpretation, of course, but I read it differently. Yes, there is resentment here, but what kind of resentment?
Avon doesn't hate Blake, he hates what Blake does to him. *******snippage*********
I also think Avon is a worthy opponent and a challenge to Blake. He fights back and he fights well. He is not cowered, he is not blinded by devotion, he does not have Jenna's desperate determination to believe in something bigger than herself. So Blake values him. People like Blake value worthy opponents. They judge their own worth by the worth of their opponents and use them as whetstones to hone their abilities. And from that to respect and a kind of love the distance is
infinitesimal.


Your summary is brilliant! It's just exactly what I think, although I've never put it so succinctly into words like you have here. Totally agree! @ Obsidian I also agree about the body language.


This assessment in my view is totally on the button. Along with Blake's motives being a struggle against the system rather than a personal agenda (something I think Avon couldn't really grasp)

Like it or not Avon found himself being increasingly influenced by Blake, something he'd liked to have thought he was immune to. I think Avon would have been aghast at the behaviours and risks he takes during season C and D. Losing his power of logic and deduction to revenge and stupidity. Something he constantly berates Blake for in their time together.

Welcome aboard Asteria! Some great posts there, nicely summarised the points raised! (good posts from others too!)
Edited by President Solvite on 16 March 2014 08:41:38
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
Asteria occulta wrote:

trevor travis wrote

I agree... Blake does want revenge against the Federation. With the Liberator, he could clear off and stay out of harm's way.... but it's payback time.


Ah, now I understand what's the problem. I don't call this revenge, I call it legitimate defense of a betrayed subject. The Federation has forfeited it's right to govern, because it stoped caring for the wellbeing of its people, so it is time for a change of regime. According to Rousseau, When the government exceeds the boundaries set in place by the people, it is the mission of the people to abolish such government and begin anew.


But apart from Blake, his partner-in-crime Bran Foster, Kasabi and Avalon, we don't see much evidence of other people being disaffected with the Federation.

What do we know about the Federation of Seasons A & B:
1. The Earth Administration is corrupt to the core
2. The police branch of the Federation is a little overzealous
3. The rest of the Federation... we don't know a lot. Apart from it seems to be filled with a mixture of people with good and bad motives.

There seems to be a few terrorists trying to overthrow the Federation, but we never see any mass uprisings. Much of the population doesn't seem that unhappy.

The Federation post-war seems to be much worse; suggesting the destruction of Star One has made things worse rather than better.
Edited by trevor travis on 16 March 2014 11:42:13
 
President Solvite
...hmm

Re Disaffected persons

What about the planets

Auros and Zirkasta?

Lindor, Horizon, Albion (and their leaderships)

The worlds of Outer Gall (Gaul?)

If there is a peace there is the peace of a gun. Blake was a hero (and was a rallying call to 'malcontents' throughout the Federation)

If I held a gun to a group of people and shot a few as an example to others I could get them to do whatever I wanted.. (as long as I a decent weapon that could hold a 'few' rounds) On a larger scale this is what we are seeing in B7. Bribe a few people to consolidate your position and your supremacy is assured.

(Just keep the bribes going, and the odd purge of people who threaten your position! Smile )

Personally I think we saw a lot of discontent with the Administration, considering they had an overwhelming military and the likliehood of dirty bombs at the heart of any planet that seemed to threaten the Federation cause. The odds were stacked against Blake. Which I think is why Blake increasingly realised he needed Avon to attack the Federation within. Ie. Cyberwarfare.
Edited by President Solvite on 16 March 2014 12:19:53
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
meegat39
guiser wrote:

If you interpret Blake's motive as revenge, then it is a very abstract kind of revenge. An animus against "the system" rather than individual people per se. He never goes after personal enemies like Travis or the people who killed his family, even when given the opportunity (and the last point is crucial and shows he is in no way Travis counterpart). By contrast Avon desires personal revenge when seeking out Shrinker.

I find animus against "the system" to be something so far removed from my normal notion of revengeful feelings (highly personal), that I can't see it as the same kind of emotion at all. I think Blake hates the system (and its minions) at least to the extend that he sometimes displays noticeable contempt for it (and them), but that isn't quite the same thing and has wider causes than his own suffering and that of his nearest and dearest.

Also, with his history of political activism, Blake was opposed to the system already, before we have evidence of personal reasons for this to be the case. Surely if Blake had not been captured, mindwiped, had his family and comrades killed etc etc, he would still have been fighting the Federation regardless?

In addition, I wouldn't necessarily interpret what Blake says to Avon and Jenna early on as some kind of mission statement. Blake was trying to get them on his side and personal motives are always easier for people to understand than ideological motives. I'm sure he felt very angry about the deaths of his family etc but that doesn't mean he was primarily motivated by that anger.

It is dangerous to go up against a totaliltarian state, so you need very strong motivation to even attempt it. Sometimes this takes the form of strong ideological or moral beliefs, rather than personal motivations. However, anyone who goes up against a totalitarian state will suffer personally and react emotionally to this. That does not mean that their emotional reaction to personal suffering becomes their primary motivation or even a motive at all. That all depends on the person and the situation. I see no reason why the strong ideological or moral beliefs of such people should suddenly evaporate and cease to motivate them, to be completely replaced by strong negative personal emotions instead.

There really seems to be a tendency in popular culture to try to normalise the motivations of "political" types by giving them deeply personal motivations for initiating their struggle. I don't like that at all and I approve of the fact that Blake is seen to be politically motivated before he experiences his most drastic personal setbacks.


I said it was one of Blake's motives. I didn't say it was his primary motive. Yes he was a political agitator before, but had his family not been killed and he had just been mind wiped, how are we to know if he would have gone after the federation after escaping? He may have flown off with the Liberator and crew and tried to stay out of harms way ...
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

...hmm

Re Disaffected persons

What about the planets

Auros and Zirkasta?

Lindor, Horizon, Albion (and their leaderships)

The worlds of Outer Gall (Gaul?)

If there is a peace there is the peace of a gun. Blake was a hero (and was a rallying call to 'malcontents' throughout the Federation)

If I held a gun to a group of people and shot a few as an example to others I could get them to do whatever I wanted.. (as long as I a decent weapon that could hold a 'few' rounds) On a larger scale this is what we are seeing in B7. Bribe a few people to consolidate your position and your supremacy is assured.

(Just keep the bribes going, and the odd purge of people who threaten your position! Smile )

Personally I think we saw a lot of discontent with the Administration, considering they had an overwhelming military and the likliehood of dirty bombs at the heart of any planet that seemed to threaten the Federation cause. The odds were stacked against Blake. Which I think is why Blake increasingly realised he needed Avon to attack the Federation within. Ie. Cyberwarfare.


Ah, you're using the words Federation and Administration interchangably. I consider the Administration to be in charge of the dome (they are corrupt, Varon and his missus seem to be about the only honest ones).

The Federation control the whole empire. I'm less sure that the Federation is totally bad. Most of your above list can be accredited to just a few isolated individuals.

Or are you saying because of a few isolated gun-freaks who have carried out massacres in e.g. 21st century America that the whole country is like that? Personally, I don't think you can judge a whole empire on the actions of a few isolated individuals...

We see terrorist leader Roj Blake carry out more atrocities than the Federation.

Blake has a genuine beef against those in charge of his dome. He does clearly states that only Earth interests him. So why carry out attacks elsewhere, which result in mass deaths. After all, Federation troopers are indivdual people, with their own lives and families.
Edited by trevor travis on 16 March 2014 12:43:24
 
guiser
meegat39 wrote:

I said it was one of Blake's motives. I didn't say it was his primary motive. Yes he was a political agitator before, but had his family not been killed and he had just been mind wiped, how are we to know if he would have gone after the federation after escaping? He may have flown off with the Liberator and crew and tried to stay out of harms way ...


Ah, but it appears that he has spent a significant part of his life deliberately putting himself into harm's way! So why stop now? With his family and friends dead, there is even less to restrain him than there was before. It may also be that he positively enjoys the danger and excitement. Certainly, his track record of risking himself in opposition to the Federation doesn’t suggest that he prioritises money or safety.

He appears to be a single-minded type, who likes a clear goal and purpose and may have devoted himself to opposing the Federation "powers that be" from the start of his political career. It may also be the case that his devotion to his cause has a quasi-religious aspect to it and for some people "beautiful ideas" have a potent allure and give meaning to their lives. Certainly, if he has been a political activist for a long time it may have become an important part of his self-image and identity and to give it up would be a blow to his pride and his sense of self. Perhaps, Blake needs a clear and distinct “bigger” purpose outside himself to motivate him. Maybe he also needs to feel that what he is doing is “important” and that he is “important”. He wishes to put his mark on the world.

Blake appears to be naturally defiant of authority, a risk taker and a driven, dynamic “can-do” type. He is certainly full of self confidence and ego and unusually resilient in the face of setbacks. So faced with a fantastically powerful spaceship falling into his hands, what is a man to do, eh?
Edited by guiser on 16 March 2014 18:51:27
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

Asteria occulta wrote:

trevor travis wrote

I agree... Blake does want revenge against the Federation. With the Liberator, he could clear off and stay out of harm's way.... but it's payback time.


Ah, now I understand what's the problem. I don't call this revenge, I call it legitimate defense of a betrayed subject. The Federation has forfeited it's right to govern, because it stoped caring for the wellbeing of its people, so it is time for a change of regime. According to Rousseau, When the government exceeds the boundaries set in place by the people, it is the mission of the people to abolish such government and begin anew.


But apart from Blake, his partner-in-crime Bran Foster, Kasabi and Avalon, we don't see much evidence of other people being disaffected with the Federation.

What do we know about the Federation of Seasons A & B:
1. The Earth Administration is corrupt to the core
2. The police branch of the Federation is a little overzealous
3. The rest of the Federation... we don't know a lot. Apart from it seems to be filled with a mixture of people with good and bad motives.

There seems to be a few terrorists trying to overthrow the Federation, but we never see any mass uprisings. Much of the population doesn't seem that unhappy.

The Federation post-war seems to be much worse; suggesting the destruction of Star One has made things worse rather than better.


On the contrary we are given sufficient evidence that others are disaffected from the beginning. There is dissent within the Domes (Ravella etc), Bran Foster speaks of the 'outer worlds'. Servalan in Avalon speaks of people being given hope and of hope being dangerous, Bercol speaks of others seeing Blake as a hero and Rontain talks of leaders commitment to the Federation being 'finely balanced'. Later there is the talk of the support for Blake from all grades, and the information that many others have tried to take Control.

As for mass uprisings we know from the first episode that the dome dwellers are routinely drugged and that they live under constant monitoring - not likely there would be the opportunity or energy for mass protests.

BTW Blake et al dont meet the criteria for terrorists, though Servalan and co do. Which 'atrocities' do you have in mind.

However I agree the Federation is not totally evil empire stuff - just well into the slide into being so.
Edited by peladon on 17 March 2014 19:35:09
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

The Federation control the whole empire. I'm less sure that the Federation is totally bad. Most of your above list can be accredited to just a few isolated individuals.

Or are you saying because of a few isolated gun-freaks who have carried out massacres in e.g. 21st century America that the whole country is like that? Personally, I don't think you can judge a whole empire on the actions of a few isolated individuals...

We see terrorist leader Roj Blake carry out more atrocities than the Federation.

Blake has a genuine beef against those in charge of his dome. He does clearly states that only Earth interests him. So why carry out attacks elsewhere, which result in mass deaths. After all, Federation troopers are indivdual people, with their own lives and families.


Totally agree with all points above, and I recall arguing a similar point in the 'which is the evil Federation' thread.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
meegat39
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

[quote]trevor travis wrote:


We see terrorist leader Roj Blake carry out more atrocities than the Federation.

Blake has a genuine beef against those in charge of his dome. He does clearly states that only Earth interests him. So why carry out attacks elsewhere, which result in mass deaths. After all, Federation troopers are indivdual people, with their own lives and families.


I agree here TT. Sorry, I know this thread is not supposed to be amusing, but your comments really had me laughing out loud at the thought of Roj Blake going round like a loose canon indiscriminately murdering people when he was only interested in earth ... Am I completely weird for finding that amusing??!
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
meegat39 wrote:

Am I completely weird for finding that amusing??!


Not really - imo there is an element of black comedy in the irony of the observation.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
meegat39
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

Am I completely weird for finding that amusing??!


Not really - imo there is an element of black comedy in the irony of the observation.


Thanks SD, I was a little worried there I had made myself sound like a complete psycho! Wink
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Asteria occulta
Thank you all for the kind welcomes, they are appreciated. Time's short at the moment, but I will reply. I just have a lot of thinking to do first.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Panna
IMHO, I think Avon loved and hated Blake. I don't think he realized he loved him until after he shot him.
"You'd never get a cat to be a servant. You ever see a cat return a stick? "Hey, man! You threw the stick, you go get it yourself! I'm busy! If you wanted the stick so bad, why'd you throw it away in the first place?"
 
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