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Doctor Who Is Dead
Zenrac
JustBrad wrote:

dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


And of course if you bring that point up to those people, they will say that it all makes sense, it's you doing your head in trying to deny it, holding on to the past and refusing to move forward. Maybe they're right. Maybe not. Time will tell.

The mantra that is played like a trump card in every discussion is: It's sci fi, the Doctor is a regenerating alien, it's now cannon in the new show, there is no reason why the Doctor can't be a woman.

Perhaps not, but just because you can do a thing, it does not follow that it is a good idea.
DW fandom has always been a tad divisive, but this issue has brought it to a new low. It's almost as if there is an idealogical civil war going on that cannot be logically, artistically, or factually discussed. You're either with, or against. Hopefully I'm wrong, or that changes.

The best way for it to change is for Jodi to be awesome, and to get brilliant scripts. Confident in the former, less confident in the latter.

I will watch, but to be honest, my enthusiasm for new episodes of DW is at an all time low, and I've been watching since 1972.


Again, spot on.

The forcing upon others an opinion that the cliques online give, in order to gang up on others who dare not agree is one of the things I detest the most. Just because you think something, does not mean you are right. It is but one opinion in a sea of opinions. Ultimately it is up to the individual to be at peace with their opinions and beliefs. The ability to force an agenda upon another, with support from like-minded bullies, is nothing to be proud of.
 
Silver Alaunt
To each his own, not for me to judge or condem. I did't like DW last series and gave up on the Christmas one - slaving over hot oven on Christmas day with no tv in the kitchen.
I have watched since the beginning - before most of you not even a twinkle in your daddy's eye. Things change, the world is changing - but I don't like the feeling of something nasty out there, intolerence and hate and witch hunting going on. Which is why I don't do twitter, face book et al. It all falls in with what you are saying. Biting the hand that feeds you is not a good thing to do. Beware of a backlash.
 
steveothen
dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


Exactly !, i can remember when they first unveiled Colin bakers clown costume, i was a 15 year old fan at the time, & i can remember desperately trying to convince myself that it was a great idea, & a wonderful concept, & back than i couldn't tolerate any criticism of Dr who, but of course, at the end of the day, it was a terrible, crap idea, just like casting a female Dr is, except this is fundamentally much worse for the credibility of the series.
 
Coser
Angry Angel wrote:

Some interesting ideas there Coser. However, Time Lords change more than their face when they regenerate - they have totally different bodies. One of the Doctors (11, I think) remarks on his kidneys being different after he regenerates - if they can change one organ, that can change any of them.


Sorry AA, that's a logical disconnect.

The argument that his Kidneys being different only speaks to them being a slightly different shape, size, location, or density. It does not say that they transformed into his Liver. There is still no evidence that any of the Doctor's organs have changed their function. Including his reproductive organs.

Speaking of organs, maybe there is some sort of organ that sets up the regeneration, but each regeneration damages it. This would also explain the rather arbitrary number of regenerations [other than someone saying in the beginning of the program "It'll never run long enough for us to get through a dozen actors, so let's make that the limit, and if it drops in popularity we can just set up stories that run through the remaining regenerations."] and only the high council or the president are aware of a technique that can regenerate that organ. Regenerating an organ that actually deteriorates when the body goes through a regeneration must be really tough.
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
 
trevor travis
I’ve found the following dialogue from “The End Of Time” (David Tennant / RTD’s final story):

DOCTOR: I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then, even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away, and I'm dead.


Note that it’s new man, not new person. I think Time Lords are of a particular sex – after all, the Doctor is a son, father and grandfather. But maybe something can happen to alter the sex of a Time-Lord on regeneration. I guess we’ll find out on Christmas Day.
 
President Solvite
dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


With all due respect, no it doesn't. And explanations offered aren't really too extreme or complicated.

It is what science has done from the very beginning, you are presented with a 'problem' where then you propose and test theories to explain what we have seen, witnessed and measured. At the time these theories are often scoffed at and mocked, but as time progresses and data is acquired with more observations taken. The once 'outlandish' theories are usually accepted on the whole perhaps with some refinement. Disputing and testing established theories is also a part of the same method.

Nothing can last forever and things can regenerate up to a point, my proposal is that since the Doctor has regenerated too many times (beyond the normal 12, as has the Master) and has become polluted with lots of toxins and lives in a harsh deadly environment it is inevitable that something unexpected happens. Regeneration for the Doctor has never been an easy thing and perhaps this gender change is a symptom of that. As we see in nature creatures can change gender due to genetic 'errors' or extreme environmental circumstances.

Of course although we can explain how things could, how and why occur, I cannot reason the should. That is down to individual expectations and interpretations but as I and others have said perhaps the wisest thing to do is to see what actually happens and form our opinions from there. The 'devil is in the detail' but based on past performance my confidence level isn't high. Having said all of that I'll try to see things with an objective eye on the day. It all depends on how well thought out the strategy is for the new direction of Who. Whether it stinks or shines you will hear in due course from my corner of the web Grin
Edited by President Solvite on 20 November 2017 11:26:43
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:

I’ve found the following dialogue from “The End Of Time” (David Tennant / RTD’s final story):

DOCTOR: I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then, even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away, and I'm dead.


Note that it’s new man, not new person. I think Time Lords are of a particular sex – after all, the Doctor is a son, father and grandfather. But maybe something can happen to alter the sex of a Time-Lord on regeneration. I guess we’ll find out on Christmas Day.


I think they were a particular sex for 52 years.... Now... demonstrably not.
 
Zenrac
President Solvite wrote:

dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


Nothing can last forever and things can regenerate up to a point, my proposal is that since the Doctor has regenerated too many times (beyond the normal 12, as has the Master) and has become polluted with lots of toxins and lives in a harsh deadly environment it is inevitable that something unexpected happens. Regeneration for the Doctor has never been an easy thing and perhaps this gender change is a symptom of that. As we see in nature creatures can change gender due to genetic 'errors' or extreme environmental circumstances.



Didn't the Doctor receive a whole new regeneration cycle at the end of Smith into Capaldi?

Wouldn't that mean that the wear and tear and toxins would have been reset to zero, effectively, with the doctor starting again, so to speak?

Or does the extra cycle mean the character is now onto 13th of 24, continuing on from his last (12th) of the original cycle?
 
Space Chopper
trevor travis wrote:

I’ve found the following dialogue from “The End Of Time” (David Tennant / RTD’s final story):

DOCTOR: I can still die. If I'm killed before regeneration, then I'm dead. Even then, even if I change, it feels like dying. Everything I am dies. Some new man goes sauntering away, and I'm dead.


Note that it’s new man, not new person. I think Time Lords are of a particular sex – after all, the Doctor is a son, father and grandfather. But maybe something can happen to alter the sex of a Time-Lord on regeneration. I guess we’ll find out on Christmas Day.


I want to see a reunion story made, just to illustrate how utterly absurd this regeneration idea is- the Doctor meets Susan again, after she's regenerated- and is now played by Brian Blessed! Imagine the horror on her husband David's face when she falls down the stairs, regenerates, and turns into a huge, LOUD, hairy bloke! "WHAT'S THE MATTER DAVID, AM I NOT THE PERSON YOU ALWAYS LOOOOVED?" Then the Doctor appears, and there's this dialogue: Dr: "Susan??!?! You've changed!!" Susan: " YOU CAN TALK, GRANDFATHER?!"
funkyimg.com/i/2y558.jpg
Vila: "I plan to live forever- or die trying..."
 
President Solvite
Didn't the Doctor receive a whole new regeneration cycle at the end of Smith into Capaldi?


Yes apparently so, which indicates that the 12 regeneration limit was one of policy rather than physical limitation. Also reinforced by the offer of a new set of regenerations to the Master in the Five Doctors anniversary episode.


Wouldn't that mean that the wear and tear and toxins would have been reset to zero, effectively, with the doctor starting again, so to speak?


I don't know it depends on the precise nature of the regeneration process but laws of entropy state that things cannot go on forever. (Even Black Holes die, eventually with the entire universe dying of extreme uniformity and lack of structure in the mind boggling future, my head hurt when I last listened to Brian Cox trying to explain this) But EVERYTHING wears out eventually at least in our current and observable universe.


Or does the extra cycle mean the character is now onto 13th of 24, continuing on from his last (12th) of the original cycle?


This is my take and its one to be possibly avoided as it seems to risk chaotic outcome on regenerations, perhaps due to sub-atomic breakdown or the exhaustion of life force energy? Well that is the theory I am using to explain the change of gender. If it were more mundane then we would have heard of more examples in my view.

Of course I could be missing the point entirely which I accept could be complexly possible. In which case I'd welcome some alternative suggestions.

To misquote Vila;

"I'm a reasonable man. I'll accept a good reason. I'll accept a bad reason. I'll accept any damn reason at all, just tell me what the hell it is that is going on and why," Grin
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
Paul Hassall
End of an era later today.
 
BradPaula
Paul Hassall wrote:

End of an era later today.


I feel the same way!
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
trevor travis
Well, Twice Upon A Time wasn't the best. It was harmless enough I guess, but it was a shame that Calpaldi didn't bow out with the far superior World Enough And Time / The Doctor Falls instead.
Edited by trevor travis on 25 December 2017 22:50:02
 
Vanessa Doffenshmirtz
why the fark did we have to have stupid dopey Clara ?

I'd hoped to never ever see her again.
I used to be such a sweet sweet thing
Till they got a hold of me.
 
cakeinmilk
As someone who seems to like the idea of Doctor Who much more than what actually ends up on TV, I'm quite excited for Jodie Whittaker's Doctor.

The Christmas special epitomised the idea that the character of the Doctor has changed substantially since the sixties (whether or not you argue it was an accurate characterisation of the First Doctor, this is undeniably true). Latterly all the Doctor's (10 through 12) have been a bit too wacky for my liking - I feel this is probably due in large part to Moffat's showrunning. Chibnall is a fairly unknown quantity, just like Whittaker. I'm interested in what they bring to the show regardless of the fairly minor aspect of the gender of the actor playing the lead.

If it brings more people to the show, and helps inspire more females in whatever way, that's surely got to be a good thing. I can't understand diehard fans who won't even give the next season a go based on the current gender of an alien character - that seems bizarre to me and probably hyperbole on their part. I don't want to accuse anyone of using canon as a smokescreen for misogyny, but what about other contentious introductions of canon such as when the 8th Doctor claimed to be half-human? Or when Tennant did the whole weird hand regneration thing?
 
JustBrad
cakeinmilk wrote:


The Christmas special epitomised the idea that the character of the Doctor has changed substantially since the sixties


True, and that seemed to be the point of the special, which makes me wonder if this was a case of the tail wagging the dog. That said, I would love to see the brilliant David Bradley get a spinoff series: The Untold Tales of the First Doctor. Heck, just recast and reshoot the lost stories.


cakeinmilk wrote:
If it brings more people to the show, and helps inspire more females in whatever way, that's surely got to be a good thing.


At the risk of sounding like as an unqualified male arrogantly presuming to know what women want, I would submit that you would better inspire females by creating strong female characters, rather than turning long established male characters into females. Then again, DW has been creating female characters that were ahead of their time since the 70's. Maybe we should have had a season or two in which the Doctor mysteriously vanishes, and Romana goes hunting for him, meanwhile inheriting the mantle of Protector of Earth.

As for attracting more viewers, I suspect it shall at first because of the publicity and controversy surrounding the change. Keeping those viewers will require consistently better scripts than we have been seeing lately. Peter occasionally got a good story, and when he did, he shined like a diamond.
 
MockingbirdGirl
At the risk of sounding like as an unqualified male arrogantly presuming to know what women want, I would submit that you would better inspire females by creating strong female characters, rather than turning long established male characters into females.

No reason we can't have both, as the Battlestar Galactica reboot amply demonstrated.
 
trevor travis
Apparently it was the fault of Chibnall and Whittaker. Moffat and Caplaldi should have bowed out at the end of "The Doctor Falls", but Chibnall and Whittaker weren't available for this Christmas, and Moffat had to insert in an extra story, otherwise there was a chance that the Xmas epiosde if not taken up this year, could have been lost in future years as well. Hence the weird non-story we had yesterday.

The most annoying thing is that "World Enough And Time / The Doctor Falls" would have been the second-best ever regeneration story behind "Caves Of Androzani", and would have been the perfect story for Calpaldi / Moffat to bow out on. Instead it happened last night with an episode that was just a bit "Meh". At least, it was far better than Time Of The Doctor, but that's not saying much.

I guess "Twice Upon A Time" was harmless enough. But since when was the first Doctor was a brandy-drinking sexist who only had women on board the TARDIS to dust it! Shock Grin Grin
 
BradPaula
Well, it was a good Christmas special albeit it the BBC America site cut up the program so there was a string of commercials every 5 minutes! You just got interested in the story and it was interrupted! That aside, I liked David Bradley as the Doctor quite well but it was like being hit over the head from the writers to try and show the difference in the 1963 to the 2017 Doctor. Made me think of Cally and Jenna being left behind on Liberator to do the hoovering!

I hope I don't get yelled at for this, but the person sitting on the couch next to me watching last evening (figure that out!) said as the Doctor regenerated and then promptly lost control of the TARDIS and plummeted out into space- "women drivers!.

We were also treated to a Capaldi retrospective after the program which was quite good. So I'll watch the new Doctor but let's just say I'll have a heavy heart doing it. Note: Glad to see Nick Briggs get some work as the voice of the Dalek! The cast photo was much enjoyed by me with Nick at the forefront!
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
Rainesz
I loved it. 'Nuff said. But you expected I'd say that, right? Wink

Peter Capaldi was my Doctor. But I'm looking forward to Jodie Whittaker and what interesting stories will come out of the change. There are a LOT of happy little girls who are Doctor Who fans today. (And old girls like myself, as well.)

Not so pessimistic over here. Wink
 
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