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Doctor Who Is Dead
Rover777
Hi folks, I'm what I think is termed a 'lurker' on this site, so usually read the forum but don't post on it. Given the reasonableness in giving opinions on this thread, I thought I'd risk throwing in another opinion.

Personally if they'd have changed the sex of the Doctor say twenty years ago, I think I would find it an interesting development. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that this has come about at a time when transgenderism is being pushed in the media as being acceptable. Therefore it seems to me this is part of a larger media campaign to change public opinion about sex change. That is what makes it unpalatable for me, the sense that someone, somewhere, is trying to manipulate public opinion via popular fictional programming.

Okay it might be a conspiracy theory, but just because I'm being paranoid doesn't mean I'm wrong(!).

There you go, I'll go back to lurking now, it's safer... TELEPORT, TELEPORT NOW!
 
Coser
And what I love about this forum, is that no matter which side of the 'fence' we are on - or even perching on the top of it - we are all proving that we don't just sit there, open mouthed on a Saturday evening and drink the cool-aid.

Despite "Doctor Who" being an audio-visual experience, there is still a lot that, as we are proving, is up to the individual imagination. The same scene on screen has been interpreted by different brains and different conclusions have been reached by different people.

Maybe some can see other's point of view, possibly to the point of changing their own, and other's can't. But it's still a wonderful thing to see how different people react to the same information that was transmitted on-screen.

If in the classic run there had been a shot of a Time Lord regenerating from male to female or vice versa and that had been shown to have been an aberration, a dreadful turn of events needing major medical attention or possibly even leading to the death of the individual character, then it wouldn't be happening now without saying that all of the classic stories and lore was being ignored.

Of course, on the other hand, if the faces or bodies shown as options to Patrick Troughton or Mary Tamm had included even one from the opposite gender, then we also wouldn't be having this debate now.
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
 
Angry Angel
Rover777 wrote:

Personally if they'd have changed the sex of the Doctor say twenty years ago, I think I would find it an interesting development. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that this has come about at a time when transgenderism is being pushed in the media as being acceptable. Therefore it seems to me this is part of a larger media campaign to change public opinion about sex change. That is what makes it unpalatable for me, the sense that someone, somewhere, is trying to manipulate public opinion via popular fictional programming.


Honestly, I'm not connecting this change to transgenderism at all. The Doctor changes his body on a regular basis, not by choice but due to circumstance, and that fact that this time he changes from male to female could well be a fluke, particularly since he's never shown any control over the process before.

To a lot of people in the theatre, the idea of changing the sex of a character doesn't seem so strange - there are many examples of Shakespeare's plays being performed by all men or all women, or major characters being played by actors of the opposite sex. For an actor, the chance to explore a well-known character like King Lear or Prospero is welcome whatever their gender.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Anniew
Angry Angel that is such a sensible reply. You’ve summed up the situation perfectly without heat and with calm common sense. Thank you!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
President Solvite
There was a television advert many years ago which is called to my mind as we discuss this. (Discuss rather than debate as that tends to have an aim to destroy the opposing sides view)

I think it was for the Guardian newspaper where you see this footage of a rough looking 'skinhead' looking fierce, running along a pavement, pushing people out of the way and knocking an old lady off her feet.

(The viewer is obviously meant to think society is in terminal decline, 'youth of today' etc.)

A few minutes later after another advert you see the same scenario from a different angle. A load of bricks have come loose from a hoist (or maybe its a piano or anvil!! Pfft ) The skinhead reacts barges past a load of unaware people engaged their own drudgeries of life and pushes the lady clear, saving her life.

Obviously the implication was that the newspaper gave the story from all angles (on which I wont comment) But I think as soon as one side is failing to at least look from the other side of the fence all hope of a sensible, sane, reasoned discussion and ultimately courtesy is lost.

Probably this video is on YouTube somewhere I just need to set the right search parameters. Think it was the Guardian but of course it may have been another broadsheet newspaper. Or maybe I was dreaming anyone else remember this?

Edit:
Edited for grammar and missing word(s)
Edited by President Solvite on 18 November 2017 08:32:04
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
Zenrac
https://www.youtu...SsccRkLLzU
 
Zenrac
Oh, and the lady standing in the doorway is in fact a younger Kathy Burke.
 
Child Of Auron
Doctor Who in the 21st century is not the show that it was in the 20th. I still watch it but I have given up on comparing the two. I have enjoyed many stories since 2005 and thought Capaldi was an excellent Doctor served by poor scripts and production (Colin Baker era)

The casting of Jodie Whitaker came as no shock though personally I am concerned for the future of the programme, I feel a lot of long term fans have given up even before watching her. ( Shades of the McCoy era )

I am hoping that there will be an explanation as to why this time, for the first time ever, the Doctor becomes female. If it is done well then I will be happy. What I don't want to see is a constant reference to the Doctor now being a woman. Let him/her carry on as before and keep the gender neutral.

I will watch but this is the first time since the late 80s that I am concerned for the future of my favourite show.
 
Child Of Auron
Oh and Romana herself called herself a Time Lord on at least one occasion. The Pirate Planet springs to mind.

Was the term Time Lady actually ever used in the TV show? I am struggling to think of an example at this moment in time
 
BradPaula
Child Of Auron wrote:

Oh and Romana herself called herself a Time Lord on at least one occasion. The Pirate Planet springs to mind.

Was the term Time Lady actually ever used in the TV show? I am struggling to think of an example at this moment in time


I'm thinking that Time Lady may have been used in City of Death to describe the drawing of Romana the artist did in the cafe. I'd have to check the dvd to make sure...
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
JustBrad
BradPaula wrote:

Child Of Auron wrote:

Oh and Romana herself called herself a Time Lord on at least one occasion. The Pirate Planet springs to mind.

Was the term Time Lady actually ever used in the TV show? I am struggling to think of an example at this moment in time


I'm thinking that Time Lady may have been used in City of Death to describe the drawing of Romana the artist did in the cafe. I'd have to check the dvd to make sure...


That's affirmative.
 
Zenrac
Missy was referred to (and asked to be referred to) as Time Lady in 'Dark Water'.
 
Coser
OK, I can see AA's point, but that also disturbs me a bit.

Yes, the Doctor has not shown a great deal of control over his regeneration, but the Time Lord President or council have. The Doctor's second incarnation was shown a number of faces which were the faces from which he was to have changed into, so we know it's possible to control what your next appearance will be. However, every face he was show was male, he was not asked if he wanted to be female this time. From this it seems unlikely that such an advanced, both technically and morally, civilisation would not have at least asked which gender he preferred - even if they all knew that the timeframe on Earth to which he was being exiled was a male-dominated time.

But also, changing gender will require a much greater 'stirring' of the genetic 'pot' than a face change. You would have to completely re-write the DNA of the subject almost completely. And don't forget, the DNA of a species 'evolves' along with the species. Species that have been around practically the same for longer have more chromosomes than newer species - and the Time Lords must have been around for a VERY long time indeed.

Therefore they have either learned to control the amount of mutation [change] they go through, or they naturally can't go through much at all. In either case, if you can transform into a different gender, it is much more likely that you can transform into a Chimpanzee. In the Doctor's case, (s)he will have to be very careful indeed or (s)he may just regenerate into a .......... human?

Although there is another alternative. What if regeneration is mainly a way of bringing back a Time Lord from the dead? The physical changes are there purely so that you don't immediately bump right back into the person who killed you, who then just kills you again.

So the visual changes are there purely as a 'disguise' and the Time Lord retains whatever DNA they were born with. Males are always males even if they look female.

This also means that pregnant time Ladies would possibly remain pregnant, but the child would have to be born by caesarean section.
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
 
Angry Angel
Some interesting ideas there Coser. However, Time Lords change more than their face when they regenerate - they have totally different bodies. One of the Doctors (11, I think) remarks on his kidneys being different after he regenerates - if they can change one organ, that can change any of them.
Edited by President Solvite on 17 November 2017 20:39:39
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Child Of Auron
JustBrad wrote:

BradPaula wrote:

Child Of Auron wrote:

Oh and Romana herself called herself a Time Lord on at least one occasion. The Pirate Planet springs to mind.

Was the term Time Lady actually ever used in the TV show? I am struggling to think of an example at this moment in time


I'm thinking that Time Lady may have been used in City of Death to describe the drawing of Romana the artist did in the cafe. I'd have to check the dvd to make sure...


That's affirmative.


Thanks Brad Smile
 
President Solvite
After some more thinking and reading in various locations and forms, I thought I'd raise some observations we have made in the real world that might illuminate some people (including me!) on this issue. Links quoted are just a starting point, and are not the only source of information that helped form the point of this post. But in general;

1. Species ability to change gender

https://en.wikipe...phroditism

2. The environment and toxins can also have an impact on gender and genetic makeup.

https://www.medsc...9670/act/2

Also note, all the advice stated for expectant mothers on what they should and shouldn't do.
Babies are particular vulnerable due to their still developing bodies even after birth.
No smoking, drinking, eating of certain foods etc.

3. Hazardous or limited environments influence present and future generations of creatures inhabiting said environment

Premature aging, 'pygmy' or specialist versions of creatures on small remote islands natural selection etc.

I must stress that I am not a biologist or chemist but applying my limited knowledge of physics a lot of it makes real sense to me and follows logically assuming that I am reading the 'science' right.

Lets transfer these observations to Doctor Who.

The Doctor has regenerated many times (more than the default 12 limit set by Time Lord society)

This raises a question why only 12?

One possible answer is to ensure Gallifrey does get overcrowded (most likely in my view) and an unhealthy desire to live forever Ref: 5 Doctors and others

Another answer is the biological 'Mean Time Between Failures' (MTBF) This term is applied to computer hard disks (the old spinning kind) But similar more extended limits can also be seen with solid state versions. But simply put things age and wear out which follows the natural Law of Entropy, which says nothing lasts forever, everything eventually dies even things which seem to regenerate (a limited number of times) die eventually. After all energy has been 'spent' an equilibrium is reached.

Possibly Time Lords have found that too many regenerations yields 'unexpected' results especially in extreme cases. Maybe Time Lords who go a bit balmy, become unpredictable, undisciplined, erratic, leak energy and cause uncontrolled 'mutations' unacceptable to the generally conservative Gallifreyan society. Hmm starting to sound like our friends the Doctor and Master anyone?

The Doctor and indeed the Master is/are living in a hazardous and toxic environment accelerating the flow of entropy in his body making his difficult regenerations that I have mentioned elsewhere even more problematic than the norm. The Master has also resorted to stealing bodies from other species which I imagine complicates matters further too.

Both examples have been zapped, poisoned, blasted etc. etc.. so many times his body is more stressed at an atomic/sub atomic level than is normal for his species. Coupled with the regeneration extension exacerbates this issue even more. Given the uniqueness of their predicament, it is not surprising that this risk of gender change on regeneration is not mentioned much in Gallifreyan society elsewhere.

Therefore as I have indicated before the Doctor's future generation being unexpectedly a female is not a surprise given the genetic battering it has received on its adventures. But I suspect that this (the gender change from a regeneration) is an exception rather than a rule and as such is a very, very rare event, in my opinion. A one in a million kind of event or even rarer.

Therefore depending on how the story plays out I can make this fit my own personal Who Canon, whether the story writers has gone through the same process remains to be seen. There is also one of motive and reason. I.e. Are they doing the right thing for the correct reason? This I cannot and will not argue or explain and probably will be discussed ad infinitum for many years to come. But for me, personally now I can sit with this revelation more comfortably with those reservations stated held in reserve.

There is a lot here and it's probably not something that you can agree or disagree quickly without reading up on and digesting the various issues and points raised. Have I crossed THAT fence? Hmm possibly, I have reasoned to myself the 'Can, 'How', 'Why' and even the Should to a degree maybe, but I still have my reservations about motives, but then I am rather cynical about such things so I beg for your indulgence at this time.

TLDR:
What I said before, but with more working shown Smile

There may have been a slight hop over the fence although maybe I was there already. Whether a glass is 1/2 full or empty is not relevant I still ordered a full pint! Pfft

EDIT:
Inserted a few missing words
Edited by President Solvite on 18 November 2017 08:46:30
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
dragonq
The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.
 
Zenrac
dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


Spot on!!
 
trevor travis
dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


Indeed.

I still go by my initial gut instinct, which was: "I don't really buy that."

I've give it a go, but I certainly won't promise to like it.

At least on this forum we can have a sensible discussion, without any name-calling.
 
JustBrad
dragonq wrote:

The fact that people are having to do their heads in trying to explain this decision and make it fit indicates more than anything else that the idea is flawed.


And of course if you bring that point up to those people, they will say that it all makes sense, it's you doing your head in trying to deny it, holding on to the past and refusing to move forward. Maybe they're right. Maybe not. Time will tell.

The mantra that is played like a trump card in every discussion is: It's sci fi, the Doctor is a regenerating alien, it's now cannon in the new show, there is no reason why the Doctor can't be a woman.

Perhaps not, but just because you can do a thing, it does not follow that it is a good idea.
DW fandom has always been a tad divisive, but this issue has brought it to a new low. It's almost as if there is an idealogical civil war going on that cannot be logically, artistically, or factually discussed. You're either with, or against. Hopefully I'm wrong, or that changes.

The best way for it to change is for Jodi to be awesome, and to get brilliant scripts. Confident in the former, less confident in the latter.

I will watch, but to be honest, my enthusiasm for new episodes of DW is at an all time low, and I've been watching since 1972.
 
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