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Doctor Who Is Dead
BradPaula
trevor travis wrote:

BradPaula wrote:

Well, after thinking it over I think I'll be handing in my Doctor Who fan credentials. So long and thanks for all the fish....


Not before the Capaldi/Bradley treat on Xmas Day, I hope. Wink


Oh, of course I'll watch the Christmas special! Just after it I'm gone. There are more important things to be done. I can't sit and mope about a fictional character changing gender, can I? Grin
Zil: Oneness must resist the Host.
 
daro2096
dragonq wrote:

BradPaula wrote:

Wow, trust Blake's 7 fandom to be so intelligent and polite in this heated conversation of the new female Doctor. I have enjoyed reading all your comments and not being held up to ridicule as I was on one of the Doctor Who sites yesterday. ... Thanks for everyone's considered and polite posts. It's been fascinating to read them all.


This is pretty much the only place I would bother to try and offer an opinion. There are a range of viewpoints, which is normal, but everyone is being civil and listening to what people with the opposing viewpoints say. I actually feel less stressed about the situation for having read the opposing viewpoints expressed politely.

What I cannot abide is the current tendency (fuelled by the anonymous internet) to shut down discussion or even contrary opinion by name calling. To object to a casting decision does not make one sexist, but you have to be very brave, convicted, or plain pig-headed and rude to be bothered to express an opinion when your mildest remark is countered by a barrage of insults. I know that I've got better things to do with my life, right at the moment.

What I can do, however, and completely anonymously, is turn off my tv.

The more I reflect on the revived 21st century Dr Who, I realise that my experience of it has been moments of great enjoyment--and many of them--undershot by an almost constant irritation with the people in charge of the show, their arrogance, and their crazy determination to force the material into their own moulds. It adds a whole extra layer of tension to following a tv show when you sit down to watch and, always at the back of your head is a niggling "what are they going to do, how are they going to mess with it this time?" I don't get that with other shows, but I do get it with modern Dr Who all the time. Of course, part of this is due to the fact that no other programme I follow has such a back history, but I do prefer to watch tv without having someone else's agenda being rammed down my throat, and then being told that, if I don't like what they've done, it's because I am some kind of bigot. Taking this attitude towards someone who doesn't agree with you is childish, discourteous and, in my opinion, dangerous. We all need to have our opinions challenged from time to time--but politely. So, thank you to all those of opposing viewpoints here for their civility: I think we are ought to give ourselves a pat on the back for being so level-headed in our discussion.


If there was a like button I would be clicking it.
 
President Solvite
+1 to what Brad posted..

Seems pointless me retyping my issues when they are almost identical and perhaps slightly more numerous than list but the sentiment is the same. So sorry to be saying me too! Smile

Like the term 'straw breaking the camels back' for me the term is so appropriate. I think this may be the case of a niggle too far

DW ratings have been on the slide generally speaking for the past few years and I don't believe this will help any. (problem I believe is not with actors but the writing and production style) Things must be getting desperate when you are getting the PM to endorse the decision..
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
littlesue
BradPaula wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

BradPaula wrote:

Well, after thinking it over I think I'll be handing in my Doctor Who fan credentials. So long and thanks for all the fish....


Not before the Capaldi/Bradley treat on Xmas Day, I hope. Wink


Oh, of course I'll watch the Christmas special! Just after it I'm gone. There are more important things to be done. I can't sit and mope about a fictional character changing gender, can I? Grin


Unfortunately, Paula, people are even saying that James Bond should be a female...I'll just sit over in the corner with my Martini..shaken, not stirred.
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
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Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
dragonq
I sometimes think the world has gone insane. And I say that as someone whose girlhood played out to a background of Women's Lib and feminist book groups discussing Germaine Greer and Kate Millett.

To be honest, a lot of the current name slinging reminds me of nothing so much as my sister and me running around the house in pursuit of our little brother chanting "Male Chauvinist Pig!". Which I am now deeply ashamed of, because the problem with labels is they have a habit of sticking.
 
Angry Angel
I'm feeling really excited about the new Doctor. Before the announcement I wasn't one of those people who really wanted it to be a woman, but as soon as I saw Jodie in the little trailer, I just felt good about it. It feels new and exciting, but then I always feel happy anticipation about what each new actor will bring to the role.

To me, it seems obvious that a person that can completely change every part of their body whenever they regenerate, can become a member of the opposite sex to what they were before. We know so little about regeneration from what we've been shown in the series that it's impossible to say that it's a hard and fast rule that Time Lords/Ladies always stick to the same sex. Given the reaction of the General in Hell Bent, when she was happy to regenerate back into a woman after being a man, I suspect that most Time Lords/Ladies have a preference for one sex, but that sometimes they swap. We've never known how much control they have over their regenerations. Romana, for example, regenerates despite not suffering any injury, and works her way through several bodies to choose the one she wants.

As to the argument that we should have other shows with female leads, well, yes that would be good, but, as this comment on another site points out, " if only our culture wasn’t so dominated by legacy titles created ages ago – all those comic-book superheroes, all those Sherlocks and King Arthurs. If women have to create their own heroes from scratch without treading into these sacred spaces, equality of cultural impact will take centuries to arrive – especially given that female creators are routinely denied the same support as men, and given that untried original properties in TV and film are likely to be given smaller budgets and less distribution, and given that even a title as venerable as Wonder Woman was until recently seen as “a risk” instead of “a no-brainer”."
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
JustBrad
Angry Angel wrote:

...as soon as I saw Jodie in the little trailer, I just felt good about it. It feels new and exciting...


And that might be the saving grace, *if* it is new and exciting, it *may* keep old viewers *and* attract new ones. There can be no argument that this would be a good thing for DW. On the other hand if it is the same thing we've put up with for the past few seasons, with a new face, then I think the show is in trouble. Yes, ratings have been lagging in Britain (but not in America), and lagging ratings beg the question, is this a bold new vision, or a ratings grab? Time will tell. I've a feeling I may feel about Jodie the way I felt about Michelle. I love Michelle, I love what she did on the show, but I have difficulty accepting her as The Master, and not just because of the gender change.

As to the argument that we should have other shows with female leads, well, yes that would be good, but, as this comment on another site points out, " if only our culture wasn’t so dominated by legacy titles created ages ago – all those comic-book superheroes, all those Sherlocks and King Arthurs. If women have to create their own heroes from scratch without treading into these sacred spaces, equality of cultural impact will take centuries to arrive – especially given that female creators are routinely denied the same support as men, and given that untried original properties in TV and film are likely to be given smaller budgets and less distribution, and given that even a title as venerable as Wonder Woman was until recently seen as “a risk” instead of “a no-brainer”."


All that is true, sadly we still live in a Male Dominated Universe. While I agree with everything you say, Lenka's rebuttle comes to mind. It can be construed as conceding that in our society, women can't become their own superheroes, they have to step into the role created for a man. It's one thing to have a female detective who the equal of Sherlock Holmes. It's another thing to give Sherlock Holmes a sex change and say, "Behold, a strong female character."

Here's hoping they win me over. I've been a fan for 45 years and don't really want to let go.
Edited by JustBrad on 18 July 2017 14:59:18
 
Angry Angel
Obviously, fresh properties (or films/tv featuring existing characters like Wonder Woman) are preferable, but adapting some current heroes can help to address the gender imbalance. That said, the Doctor is not male intrinsically, he's male out of habit, and because every time he's had a complete body change, no one running the show has decided to go that way. The Doctor's personality is always different, but he's generally clever, quirky, caring, non-violent and passionate. None of that would be any different if he becomes a she.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Rainesz
Angry Angel wrote:

Obviously, fresh properties (or films/tv featuring existing characters like Wonder Woman) are preferable, but adapting some current heroes can help to address the gender imbalance. That said, the Doctor is not male intrinsically, he's male out of habit, and because every time he's had a complete body change, no one running the show has decided to go that way. The Doctor's personality is always different, but he's generally clever, quirky, caring, non-violent and passionate. None of that would be any different if he becomes a she.


@Angry Angel: Well-said and well debated. I agree with everything you said and wish I had expressed this same point as well as you just did above.

Again, I love how civil we're being with our differences of opinion as compared to... other places. Smile
 
trevor travis
Angry Angel wrote:

Obviously, fresh properties (or films/tv featuring existing characters like Wonder Woman) are preferable, but adapting some current heroes can help to address the gender imbalance. That said, the Doctor is not male intrinsically, he's male out of habit, and because every time he's had a complete body change, no one running the show has decided to go that way. The Doctor's personality is always different, but he's generally clever, quirky, caring, non-violent and passionate. None of that would be any different if he becomes a she.


But given that the Doctor is one of the very few pacifist males in fiction, isn't it best to keep him a he? In many ways, the Doctor has been trailblazing as a male character. Compare him with e.g. James Bond and James T Kirk. They certainly don't do what they do to be 'kind'. It's a shame to lose that.

And is there a significant gender imbalance any more? The biggest film franchise in the world is Star Wars. And the last two Star Wars films have featured Daisy Ridley and Felicity Jones as the central character. As original characters. Wink
 
Angry Angel
Rainesz wrote:

@Angry Angel: Well-said and well debated. I agree with everything you said and wish I had expressed this same point as well as you just did above.

Again, I love how civil we're being with our differences of opinion as compared to... other places. Smile


Thanks Rainesz! Here's a nice article by Una McCormack about the casting: https://theconver...-who-81116
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Angry Angel
trevor travis wrote:

Angry Angel wrote:

Obviously, fresh properties (or films/tv featuring existing characters like Wonder Woman) are preferable, but adapting some current heroes can help to address the gender imbalance. That said, the Doctor is not male intrinsically, he's male out of habit, and because every time he's had a complete body change, no one running the show has decided to go that way. The Doctor's personality is always different, but he's generally clever, quirky, caring, non-violent and passionate. None of that would be any different if he becomes a she.


But given that the Doctor is one of the very few pacifist males in fiction, isn't it best to keep him a he? In many ways, the Doctor has been trailblazing as a male character. Compare him with e.g. James Bond and James T Kirk. They certainly don't do what they do to be 'kind'. It's a shame to lose that.


Yes, that's what's always made the Doctor such a great character. Even so, there's still over 50 years of a male Doctor to rewatch, and I'm sure he'll be male again in the future.

And is there a significant gender imbalance any more? The biggest film franchise in the world is Star Wars. And the last two Star Wars films have featured Daisy Ridley and Felicity Jones as the central character. As original characters. Wink


Baby steps! It's taken far too long to get to this point, sadly. After Ripley and Princess Leia I thought strong female characters would be the norm, but it didn't happen. Just like Jenna and Cally starting off strong but ending up being sidelined Sad
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
President Solvite
Servalan!!! - Blake's 7
Buffy... - Buffy
Ivanova - Babylon 5
Shane Vansen, Damphousse - Space above and beyond
Scully - X Files
Captain Janeway - Voyager (okay so its a duff series IMO, but some people swear by it!!)
Cersei + many others - Game of Thrones

Firefly, Dollhouse, Dark Angel.. etc. etc.. etc.

Whilst I appreciate male 'heroes' may outnumber female I don't think strong female characters are as rare as is being implied. So whilst there might not be a parity they are certainly not unheard of which I think is TT's point. I am also certain others could be listed but brain is fried as I have just got back from work.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:


And is there a significant gender imbalance any more? The biggest film franchise in the world is Star Wars. And the last two Star Wars films have featured Daisy Ridley and Felicity Jones as the central character. As original characters. Wink


There is a lot of debate on just how original Rey is. Many consider TFA a remake of the original film, and Rey basically a female version of Luke.

Not that I care, I love the movies and I love the character of Rey.

Great point nonetheless.
 
Angry Angel
President Solvite wrote:

Servalan!!! - Blake's 7
Buffy... - Buffy
Ivanova - Babylon 5
Shane Vansen, Damphousse - Space above and beyond
Scully - X Files
Captain Janeway - Voyager (okay so its a duff series IMO, but some people swear by it!!)
Cersei + many others - Game of Thrones

Firefly, Dollhouse, Dark Angel.. etc. etc.. etc.

Whilst I appreciate male 'heroes' may outnumber female I don't think strong female characters are as rare as is being implied. So whilst there might not be a parity they are certainly not unheard of which I think is TT's point. I am also certain others could be listed but brain is fried as I have just got back from work.


There not being parity is the point. And for recent films, look at the Marvel franchise. I enjoy a lot of the films, but they're very male heavy. Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Dr Strange, Ant Man, Spiderman. Not a single film devoted to a female hero. In the Avengers films (alongside more males, like the Hulk and Hawkeye) we only have Black Widow, and when they released merchandise you could easily get action figures of all the others, but they produced hardly any of her.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Rainesz
And none of those male characters mentioned are shapechanging aliens with the ability to actually regenerate and change sex. As to why it's never happened (or mentioned before Neil Gaiman in the episode The Doctor's Wife) was because no show runner wanted to take that huge risk-- with the exception of Sydney Newman, who originated the character to begin with in 1963. Also, the very first regeneration, Patrick Troughton, explains it well here:
http://raineszram...f-go#notes
 
President Solvite
Well as I said earlier I am not arguing the technicality of it more the judgement process that occurred and to be honest if it is a sole device to 'fix' Who then I feel the powers that be have got it wrong. Look to storylines, production etc. etc. to address in my view the sliding quality of production and perhaps UK figures.

Well that is my take anyway others no doubt will feel differently. More than should they rather than could they.

What I don't want is Jodi to take any blame should things not work out as I feel gender change is not going to change anything. An analogy is the car engine is sounding rough, and someone saying oh never mind, turn up the car radio and then we can't hear it!
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
Angry Angel
With a new showrunner coming in, I imagine he'll want to change all sorts of things. I heard one rumour that he was thinking about doing a season-long story, don't know exactly what that would be like, but it could be interesting. I enjoy Who currently, but some of the stories, whilst interesting ideas and well acted, are a bit rushed. I liked the previous year when many of the stories were two parters, so a story spread across the whole series could work. I loved The Key to Time, maybe it would be a bit like that?
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
Rainesz
I actually have enjoyed the latest season of Doctor Who and I disagree that its quality is sliding. I think it's been fantastic. But I understand people's tastes vary and that's OKAY. Grin

As for Chibnall doing a series-long story, ala Broadchurch (he's shown he can sustain a tense drama over many episodes) I am very curious to what will happen, and remain positive. I always prefer to think the best and give any creator the benefit of a doubt. Wink
 
meegat39
Angry Angel wrote:

I'm feeling really excited about the new Doctor. Before the announcement I wasn't one of those people who really wanted it to be a woman, but as soon as I saw Jodie in the little trailer, I just felt good about it. It feels new and exciting, but then I always feel happy anticipation about what each new actor will bring to the role.

To me, it seems obvious that a person that can completely change every part of their body whenever they regenerate, can become a member of the opposite sex to what they were before. We know so little about regeneration from what we've been shown in the series that it's impossible to say that it's a hard and fast rule that Time Lords/Ladies always stick to the same sex. Given the reaction of the General in Hell Bent, when she was happy to regenerate back into a woman after being a man, I suspect that most Time Lords/Ladies have a preference for one sex, but that sometimes they swap. We've never known how much control they have over their regenerations. Romana, for example, regenerates despite not suffering any injury, and works her way through several bodies to choose the one she wants.

As to the argument that we should have other shows with female leads, well, yes that would be good, but, as this comment on another site points out, " if only our culture wasn’t so dominated by legacy titles created ages ago – all those comic-book superheroes, all those Sherlocks and King Arthurs. If women have to create their own heroes from scratch without treading into these sacred spaces, equality of cultural impact will take centuries to arrive – especially given that female creators are routinely denied the same support as men, and given that untried original properties in TV and film are likely to be given smaller budgets and less distribution, and given that even a title as venerable as Wonder Woman was until recently seen as “a risk” instead of “a no-brainer”."


Wow!! You have just brilliantly put into words what I was thinking especially the part where they can change every part of their body when they regenerate. As far as the story is concerned there was every chance that the doctor would one day regenerate as a woman. I do understand why some people are sad about this decision but I think they have to recognise that as the doctor is constantly regenerating this is in all likelihood a short term change and the next doctor will more than likely be a man. However, that isn't to say that I think a woman won't work in the role. I think it could be great and like AA am very excited for the new series now
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
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