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Avon's timeline
winnie-l
sooper mouse wrote:sentience is a boolean parameter- either Zen is or isn't.
I respectfully disagree, it's more of a spectrum.
Also there's been speculation that regardless of sentience (full, part, or not) Zen may be restricted in what it's allowed to do, by the Altas that programmed it / the Liberator.

OTOH another view is that Zen is very sentient, as in: Zen: The "I" in "AI"
 
Anniew
And there's a huge difference between "Gan died because Blake lied to his crew" and "Cally died in a trap(avoidable if she'd had stayed on Libby like Avon ordered her to)"


Surely Cally would have died either way? If she'd stayed in the ship as ordered then she would either have died when the ship exploded or been transported to the planet by Zen and died when the bombs in the base were triggered.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

And there's a huge difference between "Gan died because Blake lied to his crew" and "Cally died in a trap(avoidable if she'd had stayed on Libby like Avon ordered her to)"


Surely Cally would have died either way? If she'd stayed in the ship as ordered then she would either have died when the ship exploded or been transported to the planet by Zen and died when the bombs in the base were triggered.


Or maybe she wouldn't have been in the base.
Or maybe, should she have been the actual friend you guys keep claiming she was to Avon, he'd have trusted her long enough to confide in her about where he was going.

Of course, the truth is that Cally might have been Blake's confidante but she was never Avon's. Neither was she a good friend to him. She was actually a terrorist, a zealot who was looking for death and only cared about her own interests.

There is no actual evidence anywhere that she was anything more than that to Avon.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
littlesue
Anniew wrote:

The fact that was put right after ROD is why it's so distasteful.
. Isn't the point that here we have two characters who are both grieving, one for the loss of her people and home planet and the other for the woman who constituted his whole world. Both are too deeply hurt to accept much comfort and both know each other well enough to know how much comfort the other can accept. Cally doesn't push Avon away...she affectionately acknowledges his grim humour ' demonstrably' in an ' Oh you' gesture and then does as he does and gets on with the task of surviving. The Sargophagus incident shows them both that they could have something between them but Avon probably rejects this. Just maybe he acknowledges the possibility with that look but knows he has to finish with Blake before he can take her up on the offer.

And there is an awful irony in the episode because Avon causes the deaths of both the alien Cally and the real one on Terminal...he is literally the death of both.


Anniew..I have just watched that bit from Sarcophagus, (all in the line of duty you understand!) and, I agree with you, Cally certainly does not push Avon away.

And I love sarcophagus as well TT...although I wasn't 6 when I first saw it...just add another 20 years to that!!!!
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
rebel run video http://www.youtub...prqS-XZtLo
Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
sooper mouse
littlesue wrote:

Anniew wrote:

The fact that was put right after ROD is why it's so distasteful.
. Isn't the point that here we have two characters who are both grieving, one for the loss of her people and home planet and the other for the woman who constituted his whole world. Both are too deeply hurt to accept much comfort and both know each other well enough to know how much comfort the other can accept. Cally doesn't push Avon away...she affectionately acknowledges his grim humour ' demonstrably' in an ' Oh you' gesture and then does as he does and gets on with the task of surviving. The Sargophagus incident shows them both that they could have something between them but Avon probably rejects this. Just maybe he acknowledges the possibility with that look but knows he has to finish with Blake before he can take her up on the offer.

And there is an awful irony in the episode because Avon causes the deaths of both the alien Cally and the real one on Terminal...he is literally the death of both.


Anniew..I have just watched that bit from Sarcophagus, (all in the line of duty you understand!) and, I agree with you, Cally certainly does not push Avon away.

And I love sarcophagus as well TT...although I wasn't 6 when I first saw it...just add another 20 years to that!!!!


yes definitely 'putting her hands on his chest and pushing' is not 'pushing away'.

and there isn't any evidence of reciprocity. This is just after ROD- and Avon goes to check on Cally but there is nothing showing she ever did the same.
She never checks on him to see if he's OK- she doesn't even try to see IF he's OK after he just returned from being tortured in ROD. NO, she scolds him. Vila cares more.
That's not a friend. That's not someone who cares, that's just a zealot so high on her stupid auron moral high horse that she only cares about herself.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

The fact that was put right after ROD is why it's so distasteful.
. Isn't the point that here we have two characters who are both grieving, one for the loss of her people and home planet and the other for the woman who constituted his whole world. Both are too deeply hurt to accept much comfort and both know each other well enough to know how much comfort the other can accept. Cally doesn't push Avon away...she affectionately acknowledges his grim humour ' demonstrably' in an ' Oh you' gesture and then does as he does and gets on with the task of surviving. The Sargophagus incident shows them both that they could have something between them but Avon probably rejects this. Just maybe he acknowledges the possibility with that look but knows he has to finish with Blake before he can take her up on the offer.

And there is an awful irony in the episode because Avon causes the deaths of both the alien Cally and the real one on Terminal...he is literally the death of both.


actually that's just assumption- because we never see Cally even trying to extend any compassion to Avon. The only one who actually does is Vila, and to some extent Tarrant.
Avon comes back up after he's been tortured... does Cally care? No. she needs to scold him because that's what friends do (not)

They aren't friends. Cally hits on Avon while possessed is not an argument for anything but that. That she hits on him while she is being possessed- and that happens often because she's a liability.
Nothing more.

WE don't actually see any evidence for this mythical friendship except for the part where yes, Avon went to check on Cally once. That's it
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Rainesz
littlesue wrote:

Anniew wrote:
[quote]The fact that was put right after ROD is why it's so distasteful.
.

Cally doesn't push Avon away...she affectionately acknowledges his grim humour ' demonstrably' in an ' Oh you' gesture and then does as he does and gets on with the task of surviving. The Sargophagus incident shows them both that they could have something between them but Avon probably rejects this. Just maybe he acknowledges the possibility with that look but knows he has to finish with Blake before he can take her up on the offer.

And there is an awful irony in the episode because Avon causes the deaths of both the alien Cally and the real one on Terminal...he is literally the death of both.


Anniew..I have just watched that bit from Sarcophagus, (all in the line of duty you understand!) and, I agree with you, Cally certainly does not push Avon away.

And I love sarcophagus as well TT...although I wasn't 6 when I first saw it...just add another 20 years to that!!!!


I have watched "Sarcophagus" too many times this year (and always a pleasure.) And I agree. Cally's little smile and push to the chest is teasing: she's acknowledging he's right. And he manages to get her out of her solitude. She even references his own pain: "As you do?" "Demonstrably." (teasing pat to the chest) She's trying to toughen up in the face of pain like he does, and he knows she can't. (Why he's very protective of her when Tarrant starts interrogating her.)

and there isn't any evidence of reciprocity. This is just after ROD- and Avon goes to check on Cally but there is nothing showing she ever did the same.

We also don't know she didn't. Or maybe he didn't want to talk to anyone (being Avon)

Also, don't forget that Cally saved Avon's life by warning him that Annie had lifted her gun to shoot him in "Rumours of Death."
Edited by Rainesz on 17 January 2017 18:48:32
 
sooper mouse
Rainesz wrote:

littlesue wrote:

Anniew wrote:
[quote]The fact that was put right after ROD is why it's so distasteful.
.

Cally doesn't push Avon away...she affectionately acknowledges his grim humour ' demonstrably' in an ' Oh you' gesture and then does as he does and gets on with the task of surviving. The Sargophagus incident shows them both that they could have something between them but Avon probably rejects this. Just maybe he acknowledges the possibility with that look but knows he has to finish with Blake before he can take her up on the offer.

And there is an awful irony in the episode because Avon causes the deaths of both the alien Cally and the real one on Terminal...he is literally the death of both.


Anniew..I have just watched that bit from Sarcophagus, (all in the line of duty you understand!) and, I agree with you, Cally certainly does not push Avon away.

And I love sarcophagus as well TT...although I wasn't 6 when I first saw it...just add another 20 years to that!!!!


I have watched "Sarcophagus" too many times this year (and always a pleasure.) And I agree. Cally's little smile and push to the chest is teasing: she's acknowledging he's right. And he manages to get her out of her solitude. She even references his own pain: "As you do?" "Demonstrably." (teasing pat to the chest) She's trying to toughen up in the face of pain like he does, and he knows she can't. (Why he's very protective of her when Tarrant starts interrogating her.)

and there isn't any evidence of reciprocity. This is just after ROD- and Avon goes to check on Cally but there is nothing showing she ever did the same.

We also don't know she didn't. Or maybe he didn't want to talk to anyone (being Avon)

Also, don't forget that Cally saved Avon's life by warning him that Annie had lifted her gun to shoot him in "Rumours of Death."


1. He's equally protective of Vila. Actually he's more protective of Vila.
2. If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon
3. As opposed to the umpteen times he saved her life ( and those of everyone else). I know Cally being useful is a rare occurrence, but still it's not an argument
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon


It does happen on screen, in the scene where Avon and Cally are reassuring each other.

From the transcript on Hermit:

AVON I wish I could promise you that the sparkling company on the flight deck would take you out of yourself.
CALLY [smiles ruefully] I'm all right.
AVON No, you're not. [He rests his hand on her arm.] But you will be. Regret is part of being alive. But keep it a small part.
CALLY As you do?
AVON [Smiles] Demonstrably. [Cally smiles, pats him on the chest, and exits. Avon lays the paper down and follows.]
 
littlesue
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon


It does happen on screen, in the scene where Avon and Cally are reassuring each other.

From the transcript on Hermit:

AVON I wish I could promise you that the sparkling company on the flight deck would take you out of yourself.
CALLY [smiles ruefully] I'm all right.
AVON No, you're not. [He rests his hand on her arm.] But you will be. Regret is part of being alive. But keep it a small part.
CALLY As you do?
AVON [Smiles] Demonstrably. [Cally smiles, pats him on the chest, and exits. Avon lays the paper down and follows.]


One of the joys of B7 is the fact that an awful lot goes on off screen. Even my Grandson, who was 9 at the time, noticed that a lot was not said.
He loved the looks the actors gave to each other, ('I know what he's thinking, Nan'Wink
He adored watching the background to see what everyone else on the set was doing.
And that was the fun for me, watching a 40 year old programme with my Grandson and watching him react the same as I used to.
And he used to ask me questions...something he never does with the modern stuff he watches.
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
rebel run video http://www.youtub...prqS-XZtLo
Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon


It does happen on screen, in the scene where Avon and Cally are reassuring each other.

From the transcript on Hermit:

AVON I wish I could promise you that the sparkling company on the flight deck would take you out of yourself.
CALLY [smiles ruefully] I'm all right.
AVON No, you're not. [He rests his hand on her arm.] But you will be. Regret is part of being alive. But keep it a small part.
CALLY As you do?
AVON [Smiles] Demonstrably. [Cally smiles, pats him on the chest, and exits. Avon lays the paper down and follows.]


that is just an interpretation. Also that isn't him resting his hand on her arm, it's keeping her at a distance.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon


It does happen on screen, in the scene where Avon and Cally are reassuring each other.

From the transcript on Hermit:

AVON I wish I could promise you that the sparkling company on the flight deck would take you out of yourself.
CALLY [smiles ruefully] I'm all right.
AVON No, you're not. [He rests his hand on her arm.] But you will be. Regret is part of being alive. But keep it a small part.
CALLY As you do?
AVON [Smiles] Demonstrably. [Cally smiles, pats him on the chest, and exits. Avon lays the paper down and follows.]


that is just an interpretation. Also that isn't him resting his hand on her arm, it's keeping her at a distance.


But I haven't interpreted it. I think you missed the line "from the transcript on Hermit". It's from a project from around 25 years ago where people faithfully transcribed the episodes. So what it says is what you see.

And anything you see is part of canon.

Avon does rest his hand on Cally's arm. And Cally does smile and pat Avon on the chest. We actually see both happen. Any interpretation is what you do beyond that, but you can deny that those two things happen, since we actually see it.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If it's not on screen it didn't happen. Canon


It does happen on screen, in the scene where Avon and Cally are reassuring each other.

From the transcript on Hermit:

AVON I wish I could promise you that the sparkling company on the flight deck would take you out of yourself.
CALLY [smiles ruefully] I'm all right.
AVON No, you're not. [He rests his hand on her arm.] But you will be. Regret is part of being alive. But keep it a small part.
CALLY As you do?
AVON [Smiles] Demonstrably. [Cally smiles, pats him on the chest, and exits. Avon lays the paper down and follows.]


that is just an interpretation. Also that isn't him resting his hand on her arm, it's keeping her at a distance.


But I haven't interpreted it. I think you missed the line "from the transcript on Hermit". It's from a project from around 25 years ago where people faithfully transcribed the episodes. So what it says is what you see.

And anything you see is part of canon.

Avon does rest his hand on Cally's arm. And Cally does smile and pat Avon on the chest. We actually see both happen. Any interpretation is what you do beyond that, but you can deny that those two things happen, since we actually see it.


as in, not the original script.
as in just someone's interpretation of the gesture.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
as in, not the original script.
as in just someone's interpretation of the gesture.


Stage directions are normally included in the script - it's rare for a script to be just dialogue.

And the gestures are there - they are performed by Paula and Jan. You seem to be trying to pretend that they don't exist. They do.

I agree that this is then a level of interpretation on top of this, but there is no denying that they do happen. We see it with our own eyes.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
as in, not the original script.
as in just someone's interpretation of the gesture.


Stage directions are normally included in the script - it's rare for a script to be just dialogue.

And the gestures are there - they are performed by Paula and Jan. You seem to be trying to pretend that they don't exist. They do.

I agree that this is then a level of interpretation on top of this, but there is no denying that they do happen. We see it with our own eyes.


but as you said, they aren't the original scripts.
And people do tend to project their wishful thinking onto things.
If you look carefully at the gesture, there's nothing relaxed or resting about it.

If you watch the scene you see that Cally is walking towards Avon who raises his arm before she gets near him( thats not a relaxed gesture) then grabs at her forearm above her elbow. Not relaxed, that's "making sure she doesn't come closer"- as he immediately lets her go when she moves away.

We know how Avon's relaxed touching of someone else looks like, because we've seen him touching Blake for 2 series. If anything, we know what Avon looks like when he touches someone he's close to- we've seen him close Blake and even Anna. Holding Cally at arm's length is not even remotely in the same range, and there is nothing friendly or compassionate about Cally asking him "as you do?". That is at best mockery or if you want a "I am not as cold as you are" admission.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
I agree there are always different ways to interpret certain scenes, but in this case, the opening scene between Cally and Avon (where they reassure and console each other) is key to the rest of the episode. As is explained here:

VILA All right. Cally was telepathically linked into that thing. So Avon gambled that Cally could be shocked into fighting it, and that it couldn't kill him because Cally wouldn't let it. And it worked. But that means that Cally sat back while it had a go at all the rest of us. I've always liked Cally.
DAYNA You're being pedantic, Vila.
VILA I am?
DAYNA Well, in the end, it wasn't trying to kill us, just Avon. He'd pushed it into a corner where it couldn't do anything else.
VILA What d'you mean, it wasn't trying to kill us? It nearly killed me when it fixed the teleport.
DAYNA Well, that was before it totally linked with Cally. She didn't have any influence over it except that it had to protect her. Anyway, Avon was the target then, too. You were incidental.
VILA "Incidental"? That'll look good on my gravestone. It nearly killed Cally.
DAYNA It was absorbing her rather than killing her. Making her part of itself. She felt that, too, that's why she couldn't fight for herself.
VILA That doesn't make sense to me.
DAYNA Well, then obviously it's the right answer.


Avon is only able to defeat the alien, because there is an attraction between himself and Cally. That’s why Vila, Tarrant and Dayna are “incidental”. Cally feels more for Avon that she does for the others; Avon know this and knows he is safe to confront the alien. And then he uses this mutual attraction to seduce the alien (which is partially Cally) and steal the alien’s power source (the ring).
 
littlesue
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this whole thing.
Obviously my interpretation, and TT's, are wholly at odds with yours. That's fine.
My interpretation tallys with that of whoever did that transcript all those years ago, just as I perceived it back in 1980.
I actually showed this scene to Daughter No. 1, who is not a Sci Fi fan, does not like B7 and has never forgiven Mr D for diverting my attention from her on 9th Jan 1978.
Her verdict?
"You're analysing too much. Do you think Shakespeare would appreciate all this fuss about his plays? No. He wrote those plays to entertain the masses...just like the B7 guys. Now, can you drive me to work, please?"
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


sues stories http://sjlittle.w...
sues youtube channel http://www.youtub...e54/videos
sues book shelf https://www.media...ne%20Shelf
rebel run video http://www.youtub...prqS-XZtLo
Lara and Sue's Stories http://lectorisal....webs.com/
 
trevor travis
littlesue wrote:
"You're analysing too much. Do you think Shakespeare would appreciate all this fuss about his plays? No. He wrote those plays to entertain the masses...just like the B7 guys. Now, can you drive me to work, please?"


Grin Grin
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

I agree there are always different ways to interpret certain scenes, but in this case, the opening scene between Cally and Avon (where they reassure and console each other) is key to the rest of the episode. As is explained here:

VILA All right. Cally was telepathically linked into that thing. So Avon gambled that Cally could be shocked into fighting it, and that it couldn't kill him because Cally wouldn't let it. And it worked. But that means that Cally sat back while it had a go at all the rest of us. I've always liked Cally.
DAYNA You're being pedantic, Vila.
VILA I am?
DAYNA Well, in the end, it wasn't trying to kill us, just Avon. He'd pushed it into a corner where it couldn't do anything else.
VILA What d'you mean, it wasn't trying to kill us? It nearly killed me when it fixed the teleport.
DAYNA Well, that was before it totally linked with Cally. She didn't have any influence over it except that it had to protect her. Anyway, Avon was the target then, too. You were incidental.
VILA "Incidental"? That'll look good on my gravestone. It nearly killed Cally.
DAYNA It was absorbing her rather than killing her. Making her part of itself. She felt that, too, that's why she couldn't fight for herself.
VILA That doesn't make sense to me.
DAYNA Well, then obviously it's the right answer.


Avon is only able to defeat the alien, because there is an attraction between himself and Cally. That’s why Vila, Tarrant and Dayna are “incidental”. Cally feels more for Avon that she does for the others; Avon know this and knows he is safe to confront the alien. And then he uses this mutual attraction to seduce the alien (which is partially Cally) and steal the alien’s power source (the ring).


umm no.
and Avon says it himself. Avon is able to defeat the alien because Cally is attracted to him. The mutuality of it isn't there. And Avon talks about Cally's "loyalty" not her feelings or affection or attraction.

and analyzing is what I do
Edited by sooper mouse on 18 January 2017 10:41:10
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Joe Dredd
littlesue wrote:
"You're analysing too much. Do you think Shakespeare would appreciate all this fuss about his plays? No. He wrote those plays to entertain the masses...just like the B7 guys. Now, can you drive me to work, please?"


"Of course, oh daughter of mine!"
<inserts B7 CD/tape into car stereo>
 
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