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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
14% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
7% [7 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [14 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 97
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Avon's timeline
sooper mouse
ok so I'm having a little issue here.

In Countdown we are told that Avon got shot while getting the visas, was unconscious for 30 hours, then one week later he used the visas to get out of the city- while he thought Anna was dead.

IN Space Fall we got told that he got caught by a computer expert (by Vila)
In Rumours we find out Anna was Bartholomew

so, did Avon get caught on his way out of earth? And why did they need the federation's best computer expert when Anna already knew what he was doing?

Was Avon caught by a different branch of the Federation security than Central Security? Like, did his fraud get flagged up by an anti fraud department or a security system while he was going for the visas?
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Joe Dredd
A couple of possibilities:

Vila's line about the best expert being "the man who caught him" could just be a funny throw-away retort.

Alternatively, Avon's fraud might have been a long-running slow burn kind of deal. Despite Avon hiding everything very cleverly, his actions are detected by this other, 'better' expert. The expert lets the authorities know and they take up the matter.

Central Security decide they need more evidence so they let Avon continue to play things out, unaware he is drawing the noose tighter around his own neck. Happily for CS, they happen to have an agent in play. Avon did his compulsory military service with a man named Del Grant, so is passingly acquainted with Del's sister Anna.

CS orders Anna to develop the friendship in order to find out what Avon is up to. Although they have no doubts about Anna, Del Grant has since gone off world and set up as an anti Federation mercenary. Could Avon want the funds to support Grant's campaign? Is Avon political?
 
Anniew
Is Avon political?
. He actually says in the episode, " it was only when WE got word she was dead." Implies some sort of group he belonged to when he was doing the fraud. " some people found me and took me in". Well it may have been just a kind citizen but that's not likely in such a fascist state.

So either... Avon was committing the fraud with others who kept tabs on his progress and would have been in for a cut ( possibly including Tynus and Keiller ) and who looked after him when he was shot and used a criminal network to get him out of the city.
OR
Avon was part of a network of rebels...perhaps not as a political but more likely recruited as a mercenary whose fee would make him and Anna rich and safe. The rebels might have picked him up and looked after him when he was shot. Tynus and Keiller may or may not have been a part of the scheme either recruited by Avon himself or contacts of Del. If Avon was recruited as a mercenary that might explain how Del knew what had happened to Anna and how he and Anna met. Also why Del wasn't picked up as he could, unwittingly have provided Anna with important information and this might explain how the authorities were on to Avon from the start.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Is Avon political?
. He actually says in the episode, " it was only when WE got word she was dead." Implies some sort of group he belonged to when he was doing the fraud. " some people found me and took me in". Well it may have been just a kind citizen but that's not likely in such a fascist state.

So either... Avon was committing the fraud with others who kept tabs on his progress and would have been in for a cut ( possibly including Tynus and Keiller ) and who looked after him when he was shot and used a criminal network to get him out of the city.
OR
Avon was part of a network of rebels...perhaps not as a political but more likely recruited as a mercenary whose fee would make him and Anna rich and safe. The rebels might have picked him up and looked after him when he was shot. Tynus and Keiller may or may not have been a part of the scheme either recruited by Avon himself or contacts of Del. If Avon was recruited as a mercenary that might explain how Del knew what had happened to Anna and how he and Anna met. Also why Del wasn't picked up as he could, unwittingly have provided Anna with important information and this might explain how the authorities were on to Avon from the start.


But del doesn't know what happened to Anna...
First: Avon saying that he was "about to undermine confidence in the whole federation banking system" which means that whatever it was, wasn't slow.
Second: whoever caught him didn't catch the network, so it was done by computer trail not by infiltration/denounciation
Third: When Avon goes after the visas, he is already a wanted man with a big price on his head.
Fourth: if Anna would've stayed with his accomplices, they would've been taken with her, and the rest of the network would've fallen as well. And since the federation uses torture, that would have involved both Tynus and Keiller being given in.
Fourth: Avon was convicted without a trial. Did he choose this to avoid torture? Did he give up the money in exchange for his life?
Fifth: actually, living in an oppressive regime tends to bring out the best and worst in people. My nana only survived the German camps because a German nurse realised she was pregnant and hid her. In communist Romania, a lot of people helped the resistance, a lot of medical staff put themselves at risk to help women who'd had illegal abortions, etc. A lotof people were forced to become informers but under threat to themselves and loved ones.
Sixth: Avon says "some people found him". He could have just come through and sent one of them to check on Anna, only to be told "oh she was arrested". "she was killed the same day" might have been an exaggeration- would the federation security just let people know "by the way we arrested this person and she died in custody"? it's not like they'd have returned the corpse is it.
Even in dictatorial regimes, a lot of these things are being kept in secret. Blake is being told his sister and brother were still alive although they were dead.
See it makes sense for an oppressive regime to keep things quiet- you don't want the people to revolt. You want to give the illusion of peace.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
That being said, I don't think Avon was political. That involves a degree of altruism that I don't quite see in someone who very openly hates people.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
JustBrad
sooper mouse wrote:

That being said, I don't think Avon was political.


And I believe that is the conclusion Bartolomew (Anna) came to. When the Feds realized someone was trying to embezzle a huge amount of money (reported as 50 million in one episode and 500 million in another, IIRC), Central Security came to the conclusion that the crime must be politically motivated. Anna was 'assigned' to Avon because she knew him in real life as Anna, and had a foot in the door so to speak.

However, if you spend too much time trying to explain continuity errors in B7 you will quickly go mad. Maybe that's what happened to Avon in S4 Pfft

I can hear the discussion between writer, director and script editor.

"Should we check an earlier episode to see if this script matches continuity?"

"Why? That episode aired two years ago, it's not like anyone has a magic disk where they can watch the episodes over and over and spot continuity errors in a long story arc."

"What's a long story arc, this is 1979 after all."
 
littlesue
JustBrad wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

That being said, I don't think Avon was political.


And I believe that is the conclusion Bartolomew (Anna) came to. When the Feds realized someone was trying to embezzle a huge amount of money (reported as 50 million in one episode and 500 million in another, IIRC), Central Security came to the conclusion that the crime must be politically motivated. Anna was 'assigned' to Avon because she knew him in real life as Anna, and had a foot in the door so to speak.

However, if you spend too much time trying to explain continuity errors in B7 you will quickly go mad. Maybe that's what happened to Avon in S4 Pfft

I can hear the discussion between writer, director and script editor.

"Should we check an earlier episode to see if this script matches continuity?"

"Why? That episode aired two years ago, it's not like anyone has a magic disk where they can watch the episodes over and over and spot continuity errors in a long story arc."

"What's a long story arc, this is 1979 after all."


I rest my case M'Lud!!
Cold.....you don't know the meaning of cold.
Cold is when you have ice on the INSIDE of the window!!!


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sooper mouse
JustBrad wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

That being said, I don't think Avon was political.


And I believe that is the conclusion Bartolomew (Anna) came to. When the Feds realized someone was trying to embezzle a huge amount of money (reported as 50 million in one episode and 500 million in another, IIRC), Central Security came to the conclusion that the crime must be politically motivated. Anna was 'assigned' to Avon because she knew him in real life as Anna, and had a foot in the door so to speak.

However, if you spend too much time trying to explain continuity errors in B7 you will quickly go mad. Maybe that's what happened to Avon in S4 Pfft

I can hear the discussion between writer, director and script editor.

"Should we check an earlier episode to see if this script matches continuity?"

"Why? That episode aired two years ago, it's not like anyone has a magic disk where they can watch the episodes over and over and spot continuity errors in a long story arc."

"What's a long story arc, this is 1979 after all."


that depends on how long Avon and Anna were together. Also we don't entirely know whether Avon and Anna knew each other before... and much as we love Mr D, I don't take "A Terrible Aspect" as canon.

as for the continuity ... it seems various script writers were given different series bibles which explains why characters' behaviour is inconsistent ( series C and D, I'm looking at you). Especially Tanith Lee who really should've kept her projections to herself.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
JustBrad
sooper mouse wrote:



as for the continuity ... it seems various script writers were given different series bibles which explains why characters' behaviour is inconsistent


A better and more obvious explanation is that no series bible ever existed.
 
sooper mouse
JustBrad wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:



as for the continuity ... it seems various script writers were given different series bibles which explains why characters' behaviour is inconsistent


A better and more obvious explanation is that no series bible ever existed.

Paul D mentions one in "you're him".
Edited by sooper mouse on 14 January 2017 17:51:26
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
Sooper Mouse...

1.Del knew that Anna was dead but wasn't picked up himself. How and why?

2. Shrinker tells Avon they were on to his fraud from the start...at some point they decided to real him him but I can only think of 2 reasons a) to work out his method or Cool to find out whether he was working alone.

3. Anna says she let Avon go... could she mean that she deliberately didn't reveal what she knew about his network so they could hopefully get him out...or that she skewed her evidence so he was only done for attempted fraud..not treason and escaped death?

And as for the series bible..Scorpio Attack quotes a press release for series 4 and presumably there were others for 1/2/3 which gives a lot of information. It seems to think the series is a goodies versus baddies in a dystopian society though which rather mitigates against it being considered a bible.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Sooper Mouse...

1.Del knew that Anna was dead but wasn't picked up himself. How and why?

2. Shrinker tells Avon they were on to his fraud from the start...at some point they decided to real him him but I can only think of 2 reasons a) to work out his method or Cool to find out whether he was working alone.

3. Anna says she let Avon go... could she mean that she deliberately didn't reveal what she knew about his network so they could hopefully get him out...or that she skewed her evidence so he was only done for attempted fraud..not treason and escaped death?

And as for the series bible..Scorpio Attack quotes a press release for series 4 and presumably there were others for 1/2/3 which gives a lot of information. It seems to think the series is a goodies versus baddies in a dystopian society though which rather mitigates against it being considered a bible.


i am not really buying this whole Anna is Del's sister thing. I'm tempted to believe the Del was mindwiped to believe she was theory.

and if Anna let Avon go, who caught him??
also- why would they do him in for treason? as far as we know he only did the fraud attempt and Anna didnt know about him killing the visa trafficker
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
Anna 'let him go' in the sense that she had evidence that would have resulted in the death penalty but only released enough of it to get him banished??? Possibly...

They would only do Avon for treason if he WAS working for a rebel group. Recruited by them in the same way that Blake wanted to recruit the Terra Nostra. Of course this would imply that he was a criminal already and might explain why Security was on to him from the word go.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Especially Tanith Lee who really should've kept her projections to herself.


Probably B7's third best writer, behind Boucher & Nation. She added so much to the characters of Cally, Avon, Servalan and Tarrant.
 
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Especially Tanith Lee who really should've kept her projections to herself.


Probably B7's third best writer, behind Boucher & Nation. She added so much to the characters of Cally, Avon, Servalan and Tarrant.


Seconded.
 
JustBrad
sooper mouse wrote:



i am not really buying this whole Anna is Del's sister thing. I'm tempted to believe the Del was mindwiped to believe she was theory.


From Countdown.

Grant: Why did you help me?"
Avon: Perhaps because Anna was your sister.

That's a direct quote from the series, and from Avon no less.
 
sooper mouse
JustBrad wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:



i am not really buying this whole Anna is Del's sister thing. I'm tempted to believe the Del was mindwiped to believe she was theory.


From Countdown.

Grant: Why did you help me?"
Avon: Perhaps because Anna was your sister.

That's a direct quote from the series, and from Avon no less.


I know. I just don't like it
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Especially Tanith Lee who really should've kept her projections to herself.


Probably B7's third best writer, behind Boucher & Nation. She added so much to the characters of Cally, Avon, Servalan and Tarrant.
ruined at least two of them
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Rainesz
JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Especially Tanith Lee who really should've kept her projections to herself.


Probably B7's third best writer, behind Boucher & Nation. She added so much to the characters of Cally, Avon, Servalan and Tarrant.


Seconded.


Thirded.

Tanith Lee is what made me start watching Blake's 7 and her episodes were my favorites. I was introduced to B7 by a friend in college when we watched a marathon on PBS. They only showed select episodes, but my interest in the show peaked at "Sarcophagus".
 
trevor travis
Rainesz wrote:Tanith Lee is what made me start watching Blake's 7 and her episodes were my favorites. I was introduced to B7 by a friend in college when we watched a marathon on PBS. They only showed select episodes, but my interest in the show peaked at "Sarcophagus".


I absolutely loved "Sarcophagus" on original transmission. I was only 6 at the time. I was convinced Avon and Cally were boyfriend and girlfriend.

It has remained one of my favourite episodes until the present day. It's the episode where the subtext becomes the text! Great episode.
 
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