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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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exactly how close are Avon and Vila
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Which means that everything Travis did after Duel is Blake's fault. Blake KNEW Travis was a dangerous psycho and chose to let him go.
Pretty damned stupid.


Travis isn't a psycho - he's (at the point of Duel) a loyal Federation officer who does his duty, whatever the consequences. And a foe that Blake feels he can defeat. If he kills him, Servalan simply puts another Space Commander on Blake's tail - maybe a more cunning Space Commander who will kill Blake.

Blake not killing outlaw Travis in "Gambit" is another matter. That's a bit daft.

But it doesn't cause the Intergalactic War. The aliens were going to try to invade the galaxy, with or without their human traitor. Their infiltration of Star One clearly pre-dates Travis' decision to betray humanity.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Which means that everything Travis did after Duel is Blake's fault. Blake KNEW Travis was a dangerous psycho and chose to let him go.
Pretty damned stupid.


Travis isn't a psycho - he's (at the point of Duel) a loyal Federation officer who does his duty, whatever the consequences. And a foe that Blake feels he can defeat. If he kills him, Servalan simply puts another Space Commander on Blake's tail - maybe a more cunning Space Commander who will kill Blake.


no he isn't. the crimes he's on trial for were comitted before Duel, and he did kill Blake's friends in cold blood.
The case against Travis is well made even at that point. Even parr can't make much of a case for him except for the part where Travis never wasted troopers.

Blake not killing outlaw Travis in "Gambit" is another matter. That's a bit daft.


stupid. Simply stupid.


But it doesn't cause the Intergalactic War. The aliens were going to try to invade the galaxy, with or without their human traitor. Their infiltration of Star One clearly pre-dates Travis' decision to betray humanity.


we don't actually know that. They might have tried, but they needed information that they couldn't have had without a traitor in.
Whether or not that one was Travis or there had been a different one, we don't know.
But they wouldn't have needed Travis to turn off the defenses. Travis must have done something to deserve that honour. And since by the look of the corpses in the star one base the whole invasion/infiltration thing was pretty recent , it is possible that Travis was the one who provided the coordinates to the Andromedans.

They also wouldn't have needed to infiltrate the base one by one, which is VERY strange.

Blake caused the intergalactic war indirectly Pfft
Edited by sooper mouse on 08 January 2017 15:09:11
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
no he isn't. the crimes he's on trial for were comitted before Duel, and he did kill Blake's friends in cold blood.
The case against Travis is well made even at that point.


The Federation is a military dictatorship. What you've described above are the actions of a loyal Federation Officer.

Plus it's not certain when the Zircaster incident happened. Auros was before S-L-D; Zircaster remains unclear.

I don't think Travis ever becomes psychotic. He's still operating quite logically in The Keeper, when he offers to share power with Servalan. He's clearly become addicted to power, and will ally himself to anyone to get that power. But psychotic? I'm not sure if I can see that.
Edited by trevor travis on 08 January 2017 15:17:17
 
President Solvite
+1 to what TT said (mostly!)

It is clearly said that in Duel that killing Travis wouldn't make any difference as someone would take their place.

"you don't matter enough to kill, Travis" could be to some a reckless insult. But it could also be one of practicality. A third possibility it was a merciful act from someone who did hold some kind of value of the sanctity of life even one as vile as Travis.

In any oppressive society you can always find someone who will blindly follow orders if you can motivate them with money, power, prestige or a combination of them (and others!) Indeed we get to see a small selection of them in later episodes. (you know the sort, within a nice box of chocolates there's always a strawberry cream amongst the truffles! ) Grin

The Aliens were committed to doing a galaxy wide tour of the Milky Way not matter what. Aall that Travis did was "shave a few corners off" for them in the process. You don't build an impossible minefield as described for a non existent threat.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
sooper mouse
President Solvite wrote:

+1 to what TT said (mostly!)

It is clearly said that in Duel that killing Travis wouldn't make any difference as someone would take their place.


if Servalan would have had more capable officers she wouldn't have chosen a decomissioned compromised one for it - remeber that in SLD Travis is already considered dangerous and other officers refuse to work with him

"you don't matter enough to kill, Travis" could be to some a reckless insult. But it could also be one of practicality. A third possibility it was a merciful act from someone who did hold some kind of value of the sanctity of life even one as vile as Travis.


if only Blake valued all life as much, especially the life of his crewmates.
Keep in mind that he also spares Servalan in Killer.
Blake is actually nicer to his enemies than he is to his crewmates.

In any oppressive society you can always find someone who will blindly follow orders if you can motivate them with money, power, prestige or a combination of them (and others!) Indeed we get to see a small selection of them in later episodes. (you know the sort, within a nice box of chocolates there's always a strawberry cream amongst the truffles! ) Grin


You can find people who would do it, but people of that ability and ruthlessness aren't that common.


The Aliens were committed to doing a galaxy wide tour of the Milky Way not matter what all that Travis did was "shave a few corners off" for them in the process. You don't build an impossible minefield as described for a non existent threat.


the threat existing and the alien's intentions aren't relevant. What is relevant is that it wouldn't have happened THEN, or maybe ever, if Blake wasn't such a nice guy to his enemies.

Maybe this is one of the effects of his conditioning, they made him ruthless to his own people and very very kind to his enemies.

needed disclaimer : For me, these are thinking exercises and nothing more. My personal belief, now officially confirmed by Chris Boucher in http://www.kaldor..._1992.html (thank you AnnieW) is that there was actual love between Avon and Blake, and they were just kinda dumb and didn't know how to go about it because they're both broken and it was the 70s and Boucher would've been flayed if he made it any clearer.
Edited by sooper mouse on 08 January 2017 16:56:38
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
BradPaula
Perhaps we should contemplate on what Avon says of Vila. He despises him, it is stated in the series, although Avon realizes and accepts Vila's some-time worth at cracking locks, which comes in handy if Avon happens to need him for that. The rest of the time? Avon is a deeply flawed man with obvious emotional and social problems and in it only for himself. As we see in Orbit, he would easily kill Vila, to save himself. They might have had an 'understanding' but are they friends or close? Not at all.

I think of the Robert Holmes written scripts and how he was an expert at getting the Avon/Vila scenes written so well, but then you have to look at the other writers, and they portray the relationship between the two so differently. It's not a question of one or the other way, but a blending of both and still, after all is said and done, Avon is in it for himself and thinks nothing of Vila, but to use him when needed. I don't expect some on this Forum to agree with me, but that's the joy of debate.
 
sooper mouse
BradPaula wrote:

Perhaps we should contemplate on what Avon says of Vila. He despises him, it is stated in the series, although Avon realizes and accepts Vila's some-time worth at cracking locks, which comes in handy if Avon happens to need him for that. The rest of the time? Avon is a deeply flawed man with obvious emotional and social problems and in it only for himself. As we see in Orbit, he would easily kill Vila, to save himself. They might have had an 'understanding' but are they friends or close? Not at all.

I think of the Robert Holmes written scripts and how he was an expert at getting the Avon/Vila scenes written so well, but then you have to look at the other writers, and they portray the relationship between the two so differently. It's not a question of one or the other way, but a blending of both and still, after all is said and done, Avon is in it for himself and thinks nothing of Vila, but to use him when needed. I don't expect some on this Forum to agree with me, but that's the joy of debate.


of course he would easily kill Vila to save himself. Why wouldn't he?
That being said, Avon saying things and Avon meaning things are ... different animals.

Interesting note is that in City at the edge of the world, Avon makes it very clear that he considers Vila's life more valuable than Tarrant's.
Also on several occasions when he'd have had a choice of other mission partners, he chooses Vila rather than someone smarter /more competent.
we can take Avon at face value, of course. Whether that's a good idea is a different animal though
Edited by sooper mouse on 08 January 2017 20:56:41
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
JustBrad
sooper mouse wrote:




Interesting note is that in City at the edge of the world, Avon makes it very clear that he considers Vila's life more valuable than Tarrant's.


He's talking about Vila's skills as a thief vs Tarrant's skills as a pilot, and their relative usefulness to the crew.
In short, he's not valuing one life over another, but one skill set over another. It is a subtle, but Avon-like distinction.
 
Angry Angel
JustBrad wrote:
He's talking about Vila's skills as a thief vs Tarrant's skills as a pilot, and their relative usefulness to the crew.
In short, he's not valuing one life over another, but one skill set over another. It is a subtle, but Avon-like distinction.


Yes, he never supports Vila when he's frequently belittled by Dayna.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
sooper mouse
JustBrad wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:




Interesting note is that in City at the edge of the world, Avon makes it very clear that he considers Vila's life more valuable than Tarrant's.


He's talking about Vila's skills as a thief vs Tarrant's skills as a pilot, and their relative usefulness to the crew.
In short, he's not valuing one life over another, but one skill set over another. It is a subtle, but Avon-like distinction.


an interesting point
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Angry Angel wrote:

JustBrad wrote:
He's talking about Vila's skills as a thief vs Tarrant's skills as a pilot, and their relative usefulness to the crew.
In short, he's not valuing one life over another, but one skill set over another. It is a subtle, but Avon-like distinction.


Yes, he never supports Vila when he's frequently belittled by Dayna.


he never supports Vila when he's belittled by anyone. he supported Vila when Tarrant bullied him to go down the planet.
However, Vila gives as good as he gets. Does he need that support?

That being said, how do you explain Vila's support of Avon in TRial? This relationship does go both ways.
Edited by sooper mouse on 09 January 2017 04:05:35
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
Avon and Vila are similar and different at the same time. They both lack any sort of idealistic compulsion and have no interest in being heroes of the revolution, and they are also survivors who place self-preservation, wealth and safety as their biggest interests.

They are different in the fact that whilst neither is interested in acting particularly altruistically, Vila at least shows a degree of empathy. Whilst he will feel sorry for those suffering injustice, he won't want to get involved out of fear of retaliation. Avon on the other hand simply shows little or no sympathy for others and is entirely more pragmatic in his survival. Whilst Vila will panic and get scared in dangerous situations and try and talk his way out of it, Avon will take the simple option and shoot his way out.
 
sooper mouse
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

Avon and Vila are similar and different at the same time. They both lack any sort of idealistic compulsion and have no interest in being heroes of the revolution, and they are also survivors who place self-preservation, wealth and safety as their biggest interests.

They are different in the fact that whilst neither is interested in acting particularly altruistically, Vila at least shows a degree of empathy. Whilst he will feel sorry for those suffering injustice, he won't want to get involved out of fear of retaliation. Avon on the other hand simply shows little or no sympathy for others and is entirely more pragmatic in his survival. Whilst Vila will panic and get scared in dangerous situations and try and talk his way out of it, Avon will take the simple option and shoot his way out.


VILA "That's immoral. The cold-hearted murdering -- let's kill him now before he can do it."
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
daro2096
I think Avon is just reacting normally like the rest of us would do under similar situations.

I have always said we are all looking after number 1 and anybody who says otherwise is a liar and not to be trusted.
 
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