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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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exactly how close are Avon and Vila
Anniew
And yet the question is surely what should Avon have done in that situation?

Both men will die if they do nothing. One has a gun and can save himself. Blake would I think have died with Vila or more likely thrown himself out of the airlock so Vila could live - his dialogue with Deva about his expendability and ( ironically) his risking his life daily to check those he recruits will not endanger the lives of his rebels is evidence for that. Avon decides his life is more valuable than Vila's: that he is not expendable. But it's that drive to survive that enables him to find a solution, whereas Blake's belief in his methods allows the Federation to infiltrate his base.

To die an honourable hero or to be the last man standing?
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

And yet the question is surely what should Avon have done in that situation?

Both men will die if they do nothing. One has a gun and can save himself. Blake would I think have died with Vila or more likely thrown himself out of the airlock so Vila could live - his dialogue with Deva about his expendability and ( ironically) his risking his life daily to check those he recruits will not endanger the lives of his rebels is evidence for that. Avon decides his life is more valuable than Vila's: that he is not expendable. But it's that drive to survive that enables him to find a solution, whereas Blake's belief in his methods allows the Federation to infiltrate his base.

To die an honourable hero or to be the last man standing?


But Blake has quite a keen survival instinct. It might be before the blocks on his memory were removed, but it's telling how Blake hides in "The Way Back" when the guards appear to massacre everyone. Blake might pretend to be the big hero; in truth he is not.

I can't see any real alternative for Avon in "Orbit"; just as there isn't another one at the end of "Stardrive". But it's more the whole way Avon reacts afterwards - with such coldness. It's the "Who?" and the "You know you're safe with ME" which I find more chilling. If he'd have said to Vila: "What did you expect me to do? Allow us both to die, or act so that at least one of us might survive", then at least Vila would know how things stood.

Again it's not so much the actions he is forced into, but the way he pushes people away afterwards. But the end of the final season, Avon seems quite a solitary figure, without anyone he can really talk to. Again it's that lack of emotional intelligence. He's his own worst enemy.
 
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

Re TT's comments.

Yes indeed, we can see that Avon is a very poor judge of character and he knows it, from his failures of the initial bank fraud(s). The fact that Anna Grant totally took him in, although to be fair to Avon it was her job to deceive being a Federation operative and then leading through to his judgement of Blake's attitude in Trial. Cally points out that he is wrong and her judgement is more reliable as she can read minds and emotions. Finally the disastrous alliance with Zukan and ultimately the shooting of Blake in the finale.

His reticence to trust anyone is demonstrated by the erection of emotional 'shields' and apparent detachment. He deludes himself that he is self sufficient and to a degree he is, but this effort wears him down and without a 'crutch' like Blake to rally against we see a slow yet steady decline in his mental and emotional state as he attempts to fill shoes that are ill fitting. It is easy to oppose and difficult to lead. This includes Blake and of course he makes his share of errors too, including identifying Arlen as a Federation agent but I think others would have been taken in too, possibly apart from Jenna who seemed extremely streetwise and able to judge people better. By the time of the final episode we see both a weathered version of Blake and Avon but in my opinion the former had weathered better than the latter.

Avon could see and shared, although he would no doubt deny it, a common trait with Vila. They were both flawed opportunists but Vila is more able to smooth things over with 'his act', humour and in the latter stages alcohol. I think Vila was slightly better than him to judge people, he knew Avon thought he had found Blake. Avon of course thought Vila's various skills could be useful and made them a logical pairing up on trips. We can of course see this in Killer and Gambit. Despite his griping, Avon could see himself working with Vila more easily as they often had common aims. Whereas Cally and Jenna were too similar (in different ways) to Blake's way of working (morals and politics) which Avon found a hindrance.


PS, I agree with many of your comments.

Anna Grant is a classic case of Avon being taken in, because of his lack of emotional intelligence. It's true that it's Anna's day job to do exactly that, but in the case of Avon, they actually become lovers. To be THAT close and not suspect a thing....

Avon simply can't see which people he can trust and which he can't.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:There's no such thing as emotional iq.


There definitely is such a thing as emotional intelligence. And Avon's almost complete lack of it is part of his downfall.


emotional intelligence is a made up term created to make people with average IQs feel slightly better about themselves.

and Avon's downfall if that's what you want to call it ( since it's canon he didn't actually die) is due to, in great part, Blake's idiocy.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
President Solvite wrote:

Re TT's comments.

Yes indeed, we can see that Avon is a very poor judge of character and he knows it, from his failures of the initial bank fraud(s). The fact that Anna Grant totally took him in, although to be fair to Avon it was her job to deceive being a Federation operative and then leading through to his judgement of Blake's attitude in Trial. Cally points out that he is wrong and her judgement is more reliable as she can read minds and emotions. Finally the disastrous alliance with Zukan and ultimately the shooting of Blake in the finale.


when you have all the facts it's very easy to be smug about the characters not seeing what you see.
However, there are several issues here- namely that Anna did say she loved Avon, and she may have, and the fact that she might have been served a full psychological profile of Avon that helped her tailor a persona that met his emotional needs.
It's a bit weird to say "someone tricked you so it's your fault". No normal sane person actually assumes everyone they meet might be a secret service agent- not even in the countries where secret services did that regularly.

Blake's attitude in Trial?
You mean where he is too much of a coward to have the discussion with his crew face to face? That is deeply manipulative and Avon appraised it correctly. If Blake was a decent person he'd have had that discussion with the crew in person, not run away to skulk on a deserted planet ( stupid idea) leaving an emotionally blackmailing message.

Zukan- again, the facts that the viewers got are not the facts that the characters got at the time. You are basically saying that Avon is a failure because he can't read minds.


His reticence to trust anyone is demonstrated by the erection of emotional 'shields' and apparent detachment. He deludes himself that he is self sufficient and to a degree he is, but this effort wears him down and without a 'crutch' like Blake to rally against we see a slow yet steady decline in his mental and emotional state as he attempts to fill shoes that are ill fitting. It is easy to oppose and difficult to lead. This includes Blake and of course he makes his share of errors too, including identifying Arlen as a Federation agent but I think others would have been taken in too, possibly apart from Jenna who seemed extremely streetwise and able to judge people better. By the time of the final episode we see both a weathered version of Blake and Avon but in my opinion the former had weathered better than the latter.


well since you claim Avon isn't good at evaluating people, being cold and detached is surely the natural and correct response.

so, Avon fails because he got taken in by Anna but Blake gets an excuse for failing to recognize Arlen? We call that a double standard especially as Avon didn't expect Anna to not be what she said while Blake's whole set up was to try and recognize potentially useful people from federation plants.

As far as the "shoes that are ill fitting"- these are the shoes that Blake forced on him. Avon didn't wanyt the command of the Liberator- he JUST wanted the ship. He got saddled with the others because Blake was once again too cowardly to properly handle keeping his promise.


Avon could see and shared, although he would no doubt deny it, a common trait with Vila. They were both flawed opportunists but Vila is more able to smooth things over with 'his act', humour and in the latter stages alcohol. I think Vila was slightly better than him to judge people, he knew Avon thought he had found Blake. Avon of course thought Vila's various skills could be useful and made them a logical pairing up on trips. We can of course see this in Killer and Gambit. Despite his griping, Avon could see himself working with Vila more easily as they often had common aims. Whereas Cally and Jenna were too similar (in different ways) to Blake's way of working (morals and politics) which Avon found a hindrance.


Avon is more honest about his nature, and humans, inherently shallow, prefer the people with nice words to those with nice actions.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Lorna
Emotional Intelligence:
The capacity to be aware of, control and express one's emotion and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.
 
trevor travis
Lorna wrote:

Emotional Intelligence:
The capacity to be aware of, control and express one's emotion and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.


That's it Lorna. And it's quite possible for someone with a very high IQ to have a low emotional intelligence. In fact, that sums up the character of Avon perfectly; very intelligent man but struggles with interpersonal relationships.

Of course, we should give him credit when it is due. Such as he does seem to understand Blake, at times. For example, he's the one who realises that Blake isn't going to kill Travis in Duel.
Edited by trevor travis on 08 January 2017 13:58:48
 
Anniew
If he'd have said to Vila: "What did you expect me to do? Allow us both to die, or act so that at least one of us might survive", then at least Vila would know how things stood.


I thought about this but I'm not sure that Avon dare mention what happened. Think of the kerfuffle if everyone knew about it...the reactions, recriminations - all at a time when survival is becoming more difficult and time consuming. Avon leads them by virtue of the fact that they believe they are safer with him than without him. If that's challenged - well it's a Blake after Pressure Point moment and Avon does not have the gloss of " I was doing it because I care for the common man" to win forgiveness ( or indeed the warm relationship with the others that might do it.)

Incidentally Super Mouse - Trial was the episode when I most went off Blake. I agree his reaction is passive aggressive - putting the onus on his crew rather than taking responsibility. He pretends to care here but actually he's not prepared to change and listen to or act on their concerns. It's a way of assuring that he keeps absolute control and no more admirable that Avon's keeping quiet about what happened on the shuttle and implicitly bullying Vila to do the same, in order to prevent a leadership challenge.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
trevor travis
IMO Trial is Blake's low-point, along with Pressure Point. Just as Terminal is Avon's low-point, when his behaviour is the least excusable.
 
Anniew
TT - Star One?????
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

If he'd have said to Vila: "What did you expect me to do? Allow us both to die, or act so that at least one of us might survive", then at least Vila would know how things stood.


I thought about this but I'm not sure that Avon dare mention what happened. Think of the kerfuffle if everyone knew about it...the reactions, recriminations - all at a time when survival is becoming more difficult and time consuming. Avon leads them by virtue of the fact that they believe they are safer with him than without him. If that's challenged - well it's a Blake after Pressure Point moment and Avon does not have the gloss of " I was doing it because I care for the common man" to win forgiveness ( or indeed the warm relationship with the others that might do it.)

Incidentally Super Mouse - Trial was the episode when I most went off Blake. I agree his reaction is passive aggressive - putting the onus on his crew rather than taking responsibility. He pretends to care here but actually he's not prepared to change and listen to or act on their concerns. It's a way of assuring that he keeps absolute control and no more admirable that Avon's keeping quiet about what happened on the shuttle and implicitly bullying Vila to do the same, in order to prevent a leadership challenge.


i'm not sure that there would've been a leadership challenge, and if there was one I am not entirely sure Avon would've cared. The best thing that can happen to Avon is to be free of these people who cling on to him- he could go in hiding, use his hidden money and be a lot safer without the responsibility.
Tarrant challenged Avon several times but by the end of S3 he bows to Avon's intelligence( which we actually see in Deathwatch, he asks for Avon's permission before ordering Zenb to go to the Teal Vandor event).
Thing is, they know they can't do without Avon. We saw that on GP where even Soolin's famed instincts failed miserably "The fire was stupid. Putting Vila on watch was suicidal".
But Avon can do without them. Although I think if Tarrant would have challenged Avon's leadership again, Avon would've demanded to be dropped somewhere with Orac, and go without blinking. He has no emotional ties to them, they're just baggage albeit I think Soolin would probably go with him because she is the smartest of the three new members and gets Avon.

Why would Avon discuss his decisions? What right does Vila have to expect Avon to die for him? Think of it from Avon's POV- he acted in a logical manner and therefore he doesn't see the need to justify something that is obvious to him.
If he had kept the tachyon funnel and killed Vila that would have been a nasty decision, but otherwise he just refused to die for nothing.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

TT - Star One?????


Not his greatest moment, for sure - his defence for killing millions is shocking. Although at least he has second thoughts when the plans of the aliens become apparent.

But Blake annoys me the most in "Pressure Point" and "Trial".

Just as someone needs to slap Avon during "Terminal". Wink
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

TT - Star One?????


in Star One Blake is just stupid and fanatical. And incompetent- how many times do you need to shoot Travis anyway?
In Trial he showed his true face.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:


Just as someone needs to slap Avon during "Terminal". Wink


Avon going through the pink cloud in Terminal to get to Blake faster= Blake going through the dangerous zone in Breakdown to get to XK72 faster to cure Gan.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:


Just as someone needs to slap Avon during "Terminal". Wink


Avon going through the pink cloud in Terminal to get to Blake faster= Blake going through the dangerous zone in Breakdown to get to XK72 faster to cure Gan.


And Avon tells Blake that: "Staying with you requires a degree of stupidity of which I no longer feel capable." So then why exhibit the same stupidity himself? It makes Avon a hypocrite.

He accuses (quite rightly) that Blake is reckless and doesn't tell other people his plans. In "Terminal", Avon is both reckless and doesn't tell other people his plans. He's no better than Blake. In fact, he's worse. Avon's mistakes prove far more costly than Blake's.
Edited by trevor travis on 08 January 2017 14:27:26
 
President Solvite
Emotional Intelligence:
The capacity to be aware of, control and express one's emotion and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.


^^ This

Re Avon's shaking his head at Blake not killing Travis in Duel

I think this shake is more one of bemusement and disproval, rather than reading anything deeper on Blake's psyche. At that point if Avon had been in his place he would have done it, and killed him. I think he saw it as a weakness rather than a strength. In the same way he saw Vila's humour and clowning as a defect. But ultimately he had enough in common with Vila to work with it. Hence generally their successful partnerships.

Re. Avon's capacity to judge.

Whilst it's not 'honesty' in my view, its more one of incapacity and limitation. Whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing, it is not beyond the realm of reason to see others would have made a better outcome of events. Dare I say it even......*drumroll* Blake Grin

Re. 'Ill fitting shoes'
It was a situation Avon fell into. There was a fact of safety in numbers. But to blame Blake for their woes in the later seasons is way off target in my opinion. "There's no fate but what we make for ourselves" Pfft The death of Cally, Zen, the Liberator, Slave, Scorpio and the rest of the gang is firmly at the feet of the leather cladded one. If he could have read people and situations better many of these calamities could have been avoided.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:


Just as someone needs to slap Avon during "Terminal". Wink


Avon going through the pink cloud in Terminal to get to Blake faster= Blake going through the dangerous zone in Breakdown to get to XK72 faster to cure Gan.


And Avon tells Blake that: "Staying with you requires a degree of stupidity of which I no longer feel capable." So then why exhibit the same stupidity himself? It makes Avon a hypocrite.

He accuses (quite rightly) that Blake is reckless and doesn't tell other people his plans. In "Terminal", Avon is both reckless and doesn't tell other people his plans. He's no better than Blake.


Avon is not exactly sane when it comes to Blake

But see here is a difference of intention. Blake didn't tell the others of his plans because he thought he knew better and wanted to make sure they wouldn't try to stop him- which is selfish. He also lies to them.

Avon did not intend for the others to be involved on Terminal, which is where the difference lies. They're on the ship so he has to take them but this is his plan and he isn't even asking them to endanger themselves to help- which is where he is better than Blake at this point.
Avon does all he can so that the rest are safe if his mission on terminal goes wrong- he isn't willing to risk their lives knowingly for something he wants.
Which is the point where he is a better person than Blake
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
President Solvite wrote:



Re Avon's shaking his head at Blake not killing Travis in Duel

I think this shake is more one of bemusement and disproval, rather than reading anything deeper on Blake's psyche. At that point if Avon had been in his place he would have done it, and killed him. I think he saw it as a weakness rather than a strength. In the same way he saw Vila's humour and clowning as a defect. But ultimately he had enough in common with Vila to work with it. Hence generally their successful partnerships.


Which means that everything Travis did after Duel is Blake's fault. Blake KNEW Travis was a dangerous psycho and chose to let him go.
Pretty damned stupid.

Re. Avon's capacity to judge.

Whilst it's not 'honesty' in my view, its more one of incapacity and limitation. Whilst hindsight is a wonderful thing, it is not beyond the realm of reason to see others would have made a better outcome of events. Dare I say it even......*drumroll* Blake Grin

Blake made a mess of them- even if Avon wouldn't have shot him he's have been caught or killed by the federation because of Arlen.

It takes a large degree of honesty to admit that you are mercenary and self interested above anything else. It's a lot easier to be a manipulative liar or to play stupid, like Blake and Vila. As for the latter events... depends on which and where


Re. 'Ill fitting shoes'
It was a situation Avon fell into. There was a fact of safety in numbers. But to blame Blake for their woes in the later seasons is way off target in my opinion. "There's no fate but what we make for ourselves" Pfft The death of Cally, Zen, the Liberator, Slave, Scorpio and the rest of the gang is firmly at the feet of the leather cladded one. If he could have read people and situations better many of these calamities could have been avoided.


Not necessarily.
If Blake would have come back after Star One- my belief is that he refused to and just left because he didn't want to deal with his own failure, things could have been arranged better. Avon would've taken Blake to Earth and the others would have probably chosen similar arrangements. Jenna is ready to go anyway, Cally would've probably followed Blake and Vila would have probably preferred to be back on Earth and lose himself in a dome.

But Blake didn't go back, he gave instructions that his retrieval wasn't a priority if memory serves. Once again we see Blake as being a coward who doesn't want to deal with the fallout of his bad choices- it's easier to disappear than to face Avon and the rest and admit that he was once again wrong.

Even the fact that the Andromedans were there is Travis' fault- as in Blake's fault. It wouldn't have happened if Blake would have done the sensible thing and killed Travis like a mad dog in Duel.

The rest is again a matter of conjecture and hindsight is 20/20.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Lorna wrote:

Emotional Intelligence:
The capacity to be aware of, control and express one's emotion and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.


That's it Lorna. And it's quite possible for someone with a very high IQ to have a low emotional intelligence. In fact, that sums up the character of Avon perfectly; very intelligent man but struggles with interpersonal relationships.

Of course, we should give him credit when it is due. Such as he does seem to understand Blake, at times. For example, he's the one who realises that Blake isn't going to kill Travis in Duel.


Anxiety and neurosis are known comorbidities of very high IQs. One of my old teachers used to say that above 150 IQ normal psychology just didn't work anymore.
Einstein was a cheater and insensitive. Stephen hawking was very abusive to his first wife. Newton had a mental breakdown. Charles Darwin is believed to have had a panic disorder.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Lorna wrote:

Emotional Intelligence:
The capacity to be aware of, control and express one's emotion and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.


which very few people have naturally, for most it's a learne dtrait.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
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