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exactly how close are Avon and Vila
sooper mouse
There are a few episodes in which we see that Avon's alleged contempt for Vila is just a facade, so it got me wondering

Exactly how close friends are they? We already know that the banter is just banter and none of them take it seriously.
But we also know that Vila trusts Avon, and that Avon values Vila, and not just for his talents.

So what if Avon and VIla are in fact close allies and the whole banter and insults are just a facade?

We know Vila is a lot smarter than he shows it, and we also know that when push comes to shove, Avon does have a certain degree of trust in Vila.

What tripped me off, aside from the obvious episode in Gambit, is the discussion in Trial, where that whole dialogue between Vila and Avon on the ship after Blake is gone feels kinda rehearsed. Those two are already agreeing and know it, this whole scene looks like it's aimed at convincing Jenna. Jenna who is already doubting Blake and has been for a while.

Because Cally is in the unenviable position of having nowhere else to go and not really having much in way of irreplaceable skills, so whether Cally goes with the rest or teleports down to look for Blake is not as relevant as convincing Jenna, and Jenna is rather close to being convinced.

We see the same thing in Killer, where Villa no longer needs to do the fool act. Also as early as Deliverance, where Avon chooses as his partner- not competent Jenna, not powerful Gan but Vila, who is more or less dead weight or so Avon wants the rest to believe that he regards Vila as.
The message is rather subtle- Avon might berate Vila all day long but he actually Trusts Vila to have his back when things are hard.

What if Avon identified Vila (before Blake was brought in) as the most useful of the lot in the detention centre and on London and manipulated it so that Vila got close to Blake so Avon wouldn't have to make the first move himself?

Vila is smart enough to recognize Avon's value and Avon would need an ally who is more likable than he is (he's too smart not to realize he's not the kind of person people flock to easily).
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
rojkerr1
They are really close in Orbit, they seem to know each other so intimately by then, almost an element of gentle banter -and Avon seems genuinely fond of him, which makes the denouement even more shocking
 
sooper mouse
rojkerr1 wrote:

They are really close in Orbit, they seem to know each other so intimately by then, almost an element of gentle banter -and Avon seems genuinely fond of him, which makes the denouement even more shocking


not really, if you're Avon

I guess it takes an autistic literalness to get this.

Avon says "You know you're safe with me, Vila". Technically, he doesn't break his word.
Avon doesn't choose between X and Vila's life. He chooses between his own life and the death of himself and Vila.

What choices would Avon have at that point? if he does nothing, they both die and therefore he would have failed in keeping VIla safe.
Vila is not a pilot, therefore even if Avon jumped off the ship, Vila doesn't have the skills to save himself. Avon sacrificing himself wouldn't save Vila, therefore it would be pointless- Vila would die anyway.
Therefore Avon wouldn't quite technically have broken his word. He can't keep Vila safe so it makes no sense for him to die too.
Edited by sooper mouse on 07 January 2017 20:00:53
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
I've been thinking about this and I really want to believe that Avon feels loyalty towards Vila but I really can't.

I think he understands Vila because he is also a criminal and they have shared some of the same experiences and have a silmilar mind set. I think he finds Vila no threat and intelligent enough to be interesting and a bit of a mental challenge so he can relax with him more than the others. I think he is amused by Vila as one would be by a clever pet. I think he likes the fact that Vila dislikes risking his life and that he is an ally against Blake to some extent. I think he appreciates Vila's criminal talents a lot. I think he likes asserting his superiority over the Delta thief.

I don't think for a moment he thinks of Vila as an equal. I think on the occasion when he puts himself out to rescue Vila ( City at the edge) its because he needs Vila on his team to counteract the ambition of Tarrant and also to show Tarrant who's boss.

I do think it unnerves him a bit to be sacrificing Vila in Orbit... as it would Cally or Dayna ( not Tarrant and probably not Soolin either ) because he's comfortable with them, regards them as loyal to him and he would miss their skills but it's a regret that he will soon get over. Tarrant and Soolin are more hired hands to Avon, skilful but replaceable for the right inducements.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
Klenotka
I think Avon appreciates Vila in the sense that he knows Vila hides his actual self, like the others - he presents himself as a coward and makes himself look...less smart than he is. Nobody can survive in B7 in a criminal world as long as he did without doing something right. So he keeps him close because Vila is useful.
But I donīt think he considers him a friend - he can often barely stand him. He knows they need him but I donīt think he would hesitate to leave him behind.
I always thought the only two people he really respected and had a sort of twisted relationship with, were Blake and Cally. I think he respected Soolin after a while because she was very similar to him but same as Vila, he knew she was useful but would not hesitate to sacrifice her if it would help him.

That said, they were sometimes very inconsistent with this and I think his mental health went downhill somewhere in the middle of season 3 and in season 4. So I think he may have been fond of Vila when they were stuck on the ship, following Blakeīs crazy plan but after Blake disappeared, he started to follow *his* plan, whatever it was and Vila was becoming more and more unreliable (Because, letīs face, the man was an alcoholic)
Donīt be Lasagne
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

I've been thinking about this and I really want to believe that Avon feels loyalty towards Vila but I really can't.

I think he understands Vila because he is also a criminal and they have shared some of the same experiences and have a silmilar mind set. I think he finds Vila no threat and intelligent enough to be interesting and a bit of a mental challenge so he can relax with him more than the others. I think he is amused by Vila as one would be by a clever pet. I think he likes the fact that Vila dislikes risking his life and that he is an ally against Blake to some extent. I think he appreciates Vila's criminal talents a lot. I think he likes asserting his superiority over the Delta thief.

I don't think for a moment he thinks of Vila as an equal. I think on the occasion when he puts himself out to rescue Vila ( City at the edge) its because he needs Vila on his team to counteract the ambition of Tarrant and also to show Tarrant who's boss.

I do think it unnerves him a bit to be sacrificing Vila in Orbit... as it would Cally or Dayna ( not Tarrant and probably not Soolin either ) because he's comfortable with them, regards them as loyal to him and he would miss their skills but it's a regret that he will soon get over. Tarrant and Soolin are more hired hands to Avon, skilful but replaceable for the right inducements.

oh, I never said Avon thought Vila was his equal.
Does it unnerve him in Orbit? sure it does, you can see it on his face. It's not a decision that he can make easily.

But I disagree with the term "sacrificing Vila" because Vila would die regardlessly. Why would Avon kill himself when he can't actually save Vila? Why should Avon die for Vila's sake when it would achieve nothing?
Edited by sooper mouse on 08 January 2017 05:43:30
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

I've been thinking about this and I really want to believe that Avon feels loyalty towards Vila but I really can't.

I think he understands Vila because he is also a criminal and they have shared some of the same experiences and have a silmilar mind set. I think he finds Vila no threat and intelligent enough to be interesting and a bit of a mental challenge so he can relax with him more than the others. I think he is amused by Vila as one would be by a clever pet. I think he likes the fact that Vila dislikes risking his life and that he is an ally against Blake to some extent. I think he appreciates Vila's criminal talents a lot. I think he likes asserting his superiority over the Delta thief.

I don't think for a moment he thinks of Vila as an equal. I think on the occasion when he puts himself out to rescue Vila ( City at the edge) its because he needs Vila on his team to counteract the ambition of Tarrant and also to show Tarrant who's boss.

I do think it unnerves him a bit to be sacrificing Vila in Orbit... as it would Cally or Dayna ( not Tarrant and probably not Soolin either ) because he's comfortable with them, regards them as loyal to him and he would miss their skills but it's a regret that he will soon get over. Tarrant and Soolin are more hired hands to Avon, skilful but replaceable for the right inducements.


I don't think Avon sees anyone as an equal - he has quite a superiority complex Wink

However, Vila is the closest thing he's actually got to a friend, especially after Cally's death. And yes, that is what makes Orbit all the more shocking. We see how well Avon and Vila get on in each other's company, away from the rest of the crew (as Rojkerr describes it so well, it is 'gentle banter' between them). And then, in an instant, that is all stripped away.

As for Soolin, well he could try sacrificing her in a similar situation, but good luck if he did! Soolin wouldn't be hiding; she'd be out to shoot him. Again, it's something that Avon would only do if he absolutely had to - because there's something going on in Gold and Warlord. Not sure what, I don't think anything emotional is involved, but there may well be a simply physical and recreational thing going on between Avon and Soolin. There's something in the body language.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Anniew wrote:

I've been thinking about this and I really want to believe that Avon feels loyalty towards Vila but I really can't.

I think he understands Vila because he is also a criminal and they have shared some of the same experiences and have a silmilar mind set. I think he finds Vila no threat and intelligent enough to be interesting and a bit of a mental challenge so he can relax with him more than the others. I think he is amused by Vila as one would be by a clever pet. I think he likes the fact that Vila dislikes risking his life and that he is an ally against Blake to some extent. I think he appreciates Vila's criminal talents a lot. I think he likes asserting his superiority over the Delta thief.

I don't think for a moment he thinks of Vila as an equal. I think on the occasion when he puts himself out to rescue Vila ( City at the edge) its because he needs Vila on his team to counteract the ambition of Tarrant and also to show Tarrant who's boss.

I do think it unnerves him a bit to be sacrificing Vila in Orbit... as it would Cally or Dayna ( not Tarrant and probably not Soolin either ) because he's comfortable with them, regards them as loyal to him and he would miss their skills but it's a regret that he will soon get over. Tarrant and Soolin are more hired hands to Avon, skilful but replaceable for the right inducements.


I don't think Avon sees anyone as an equal - he has quite a superiority complex Wink

However, Vila is the closest thing he's actually got to a friend, especially after Cally's death. And yes, that is what makes Orbit all the more shocking. We see how well Avon and Vila get on in each other's company, away from the rest of the crew (as Rojkerr describes it so well, it is 'gentle banter' between them). And then, in an instant, that is all stripped away.

As for Soolin, well he could try sacrificing her in a similar situation, but good luck if he did! Soolin wouldn't be hiding; she'd be out to shoot him. Again, it's something that Avon would only do if he absolutely had to - because there's something going on in Gold and Warlord. Not sure what, I don't think anything emotional is involved, but there may well be a simply physical and recreational thing going on between Avon and Soolin. There's something in the body language.


so you think Avon should accept death just so Vila wouldn't die alone?
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Anniew wrote:

I've been thinking about this and I really want to believe that Avon feels loyalty towards Vila but I really can't.

I think he understands Vila because he is also a criminal and they have shared some of the same experiences and have a silmilar mind set. I think he finds Vila no threat and intelligent enough to be interesting and a bit of a mental challenge so he can relax with him more than the others. I think he is amused by Vila as one would be by a clever pet. I think he likes the fact that Vila dislikes risking his life and that he is an ally against Blake to some extent. I think he appreciates Vila's criminal talents a lot. I think he likes asserting his superiority over the Delta thief.

I don't think for a moment he thinks of Vila as an equal. I think on the occasion when he puts himself out to rescue Vila ( City at the edge) its because he needs Vila on his team to counteract the ambition of Tarrant and also to show Tarrant who's boss.

I do think it unnerves him a bit to be sacrificing Vila in Orbit... as it would Cally or Dayna ( not Tarrant and probably not Soolin either ) because he's comfortable with them, regards them as loyal to him and he would miss their skills but it's a regret that he will soon get over. Tarrant and Soolin are more hired hands to Avon, skilful but replaceable for the right inducements.


I don't think Avon sees anyone as an equal - he has quite a superiority complex Wink

However, Vila is the closest thing he's actually got to a friend, especially after Cally's death. And yes, that is what makes Orbit all the more shocking. We see how well Avon and Vila get on in each other's company, away from the rest of the crew (as Rojkerr describes it so well, it is 'gentle banter' between them). And then, in an instant, that is all stripped away.

As for Soolin, well he could try sacrificing her in a similar situation, but good luck if he did! Soolin wouldn't be hiding; she'd be out to shoot him. Again, it's something that Avon would only do if he absolutely had to - because there's something going on in Gold and Warlord. Not sure what, I don't think anything emotional is involved, but there may well be a simply physical and recreational thing going on between Avon and Soolin. There's something in the body language.


Avon has a justified superiority complex.
That being said, if the choice was between his own life and dying with Soolin, he'd choose his own life, and Soolin would probably understand, and she'd do the same.
It's important to keep in mind that this isn't Avon choosing his own life over Vila's. Vila would die if Avon sacrificed himself too, so Avon accepting death would be a waste of a slightly damaged Avon
Soolin and Avon get each other, they are both utilitarians.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
I think Avon acts in a way that any of us might have acted if faced with a similar choice in Orbit if you were with someone you didn't love or rate that highly. Whether we could go through with that first impulse is another matter. And there was the option of throwing Orac out of the ship ( though I suppose that wouldn't have been 70 kilos). I'm sure Avon wouldn't have thought to sacrifice Anna rather than himself if this had happened pre Rumours and perhaps even post Rumours he would not be so willing to sacrifice Cally or Dayna. I don't know. It would have been even more shocking if he'd gone to airlock Dayna - it's shocking enough that he uses her as a decoy in Star Drive without telling her. Since Avon led Vila into the Death scenario then you could argue he was responsible for him and should have tried to save him but as his crew was composed of opportunistic criminals, deserters, murderers and asssassins that's not really such an issue. I think it is the lack of emotion that Avon displays rather than his choice that is chilling and the sense that all he is trying to stay alive for is revenge. If I think at all that he should have accepted death it's for Avon's sake not Vila's. It's a cold Universe if love and friendship are meaningless and this scene demonstrates that Avon has no friends or love in his life - he has been stripped of that. Is there a point to staying alive if you cannot love anyone more than yourself?
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

I think Avon acts in a way that any of us might have acted if faced with a similar choice in Orbit if you were with someone you didn't love or rate that highly. Whether we could go through with that first impulse is another matter. And there was the option of throwing Orac out of the ship ( though I suppose that wouldn't have been 70 kilos). I'm sure Avon wouldn't have thought to sacrifice Anna rather than himself if this had happened pre Rumours and perhaps even post Rumours he would not be so willing to sacrifice Cally or Dayna. I don't know. It would have been even more shocking if he'd gone to airlock Dayna - it's shocking enough that he uses her as a decoy in Star Drive without telling her. Since Avon led Vila into the Death scenario then you could argue he was responsible for him and should have tried to save him but as his crew was composed of opportunistic criminals, deserters, murderers and asssassins that's not really such an issue. I think it is the lack of emotion that Avon displays rather than his choice that is chilling and the sense that all he is trying to stay alive for is revenge. If I think at all that he should have accepted death it's for Avon's sake not Vila's. It's a cold Universe if love and friendship are meaningless and this scene demonstrates that Avon has no friends or love in his life - he has been stripped of that. Is there a point to staying alive if you cannot love anyone more than yourself?


Just because Avon doesn't love Vila doesn't mean he doesn't love anybody.
And he wouldn't have thrown Blake out, that's for sure.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

so you think Avon should accept death just so Vila wouldn't die alone?


No, I didn't say that. Avon reacted in exactly the way you would expect. We've seen him sacrifice Dr Plaxton. Avon looks after No 1 - and has a very strong survival instinct.

But it's sad to see him lose the closest thing he had to a friend. It's yet another brick in Avon's wall, which causes a stressed out Avon to shoot Blake in the final episode.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Just because Avon doesn't love Vila doesn't mean he doesn't love anybody.
And he wouldn't have thrown Blake out, that's for sure.


Er... the end of episode 52. He *does* shoot Blake! Grin
Edited by trevor travis on 08 January 2017 10:37:55
 
President Solvite
How close were Avon and Vila??

I'd say about 3' 6"" approximately Grin

It does vary though , sometimes they get closer sometimes it can be thousands of miles!

*gets coat*
Edited by President Solvite on 08 January 2017 11:28:40
 
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trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:Avon has a justified superiority complex.


Really? Avon has a very high IQ, but in contrast, he has a very low emotional IQ.

We see Avon make a calamitous serious of errors. It's true that Avon is left making some tough decisions almost alone and there is an element of bad luck as well, but he still makes some poor decisions. In particular, he loses Liberator due to his own poor judgement and that makes such a difference to the crew's subsequent fortunes.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Just because Avon doesn't love Vila doesn't mean he doesn't love anybody.
And he wouldn't have thrown Blake out, that's for sure.


Er... the end of episode 52. He *does* shoot Blake! Grin
not the same thing.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:Avon has a justified superiority complex.


Really? Avon has a very high IQ, but in contrast, he has a very low emotional IQ.

We see Avon make a calamitous serious of errors. It's true that Avon is left making some tough decisions almost alone and there is an element of bad luck as well, but he still makes some poor decisions. In particular, he loses Liberator due to his own poor judgement and that makes such a difference to the crew's subsequent fortunes.


There's no such thing as emotional iq.
As for the rest, it's debatable
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:There's no such thing as emotional iq.


There definitely is such a thing as emotional intelligence. And Avon's almost complete lack of it is part of his downfall.
 
Lorna
I so agree TT
 
President Solvite
Re TT's comments.

Yes indeed, we can see that Avon is a very poor judge of character and he knows it, from his failures of the initial bank fraud(s). The fact that Anna Grant totally took him in, although to be fair to Avon it was her job to deceive being a Federation operative and then leading through to his judgement of Blake's attitude in Trial. Cally points out that he is wrong and her judgement is more reliable as she can read minds and emotions. Finally the disastrous alliance with Zukan and ultimately the shooting of Blake in the finale.

His reticence to trust anyone is demonstrated by the erection of emotional 'shields' and apparent detachment. He deludes himself that he is self sufficient and to a degree he is, but this effort wears him down and without a 'crutch' like Blake to rally against we see a slow yet steady decline in his mental and emotional state as he attempts to fill shoes that are ill fitting. It is easy to oppose and difficult to lead. This includes Blake and of course he makes his share of errors too, including identifying Arlen as a Federation agent but I think others would have been taken in too, possibly apart from Jenna who seemed extremely streetwise and able to judge people better. By the time of the final episode we see both a weathered version of Blake and Avon but in my opinion the former had weathered better than the latter.

Avon could see and shared, although he would no doubt deny it, a common trait with Vila. They were both flawed opportunists but Vila is more able to smooth things over with 'his act', humour and in the latter stages alcohol. I think Vila was slightly better than him to judge people, he knew Avon thought he had found Blake. Avon of course thought Vila's various skills could be useful and made them a logical pairing up on trips. We can of course see this in Killer and Gambit. Despite his griping, Avon could see himself working with Vila more easily as they often had common aims. Whereas Cally and Jenna were too similar (in different ways) to Blake's way of working (morals and politics) which Avon found a hindrance.
 
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