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Random Rewatch - D11 Orbit
President Solvite
Hi guys, late to the party I know, how did Egrorian get a piece of a neutron star.

Yes I know its a plot "Macmuffin", but I find it a hard thing to swallow Grin
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Thanks everyone for their company. See you next week for the conclusion of our Random Rewatch.... it's Death-Watch with its happily ever after ending Wink


Oh, good, we can sing Vere's song again.


Death-Watch actually does have a happy ending... well unless you're Deeta Tarrant Wink
 
sooper mouse
President Solvite wrote:

Hi guys, late to the party I know, how did Egrorian get a piece of a neutron star.

Yes I know its a plot "Macmuffin", but I find it a hard thing to swallow Grin


depending on how much money he left with he could've created it in his lab.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Thanks everyone for their company. See you next week for the conclusion of our Random Rewatch.... it's Death-Watch with its happily ever after ending Wink


Oh, good, we can sing Vere's song again.


Death-Watch actually does have a happy ending... well unless you're Deeta Tarrant Wink


I always thought his name was Dieter
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

Hi guys, late to the party I know, how did Egrorian get a piece of a neutron star.

Yes I know its a plot "Macmuffin", but I find it a hard thing to swallow Grin


Yes I would definitely advise NOT swallowing it Wink
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

President Solvite wrote:

Hi guys, late to the party I know, how did Egrorian get a piece of a neutron star.

Yes I know its a plot "Macmuffin", but I find it a hard thing to swallow Grin


Yes I would definitely advise NOT swallowing it Wink


talk about biting more than you can chew
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
BradPaula
trevor travis wrote:

JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Thanks everyone for their company. See you next week for the conclusion of our Random Rewatch.... it's Death-Watch with its happily ever after ending Wink


Oh, good, we can sing Vere's song again.


Death-Watch actually does have a happy ending... well unless you're Deeta Tarrant Wink


That's true. Poor Deeta!
 
Anniew
Nobody seems to have questioned whether Vila should have done the 'decent' thing and sacrificed himself to save Avon....or commented on the fact that he suggests spacing Avon in Spacefall.

Ironically, Vila WAS safe with Avon at the end of the episode.

And you could argue that Avon tries hard to hand leadership to Tarrant but when the latter is so dismal at it, he's forced to take over again ( Kairos) so he's a leader by default not conviction which alters his responsibility to the crew.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Nobody seems to have questioned whether Vila should have done the 'decent' thing and sacrificed himself to save Avon....or commented on the fact that he suggests spacing Avon in Spacefall.

Ironically, Vila WAS safe with Avon at the end of the episode.

And you could argue that Avon tries hard to hand leadership to Tarrant but when the latter is so dismal at it, he's forced to take over again ( Kairos) so he's a leader by default not conviction which alters his responsibility to the crew.


Funny that isn't it
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Nobody seems to have questioned whether Vila should have done the 'decent' thing and sacrificed himself to save Avon....or commented on the fact that he suggests spacing Avon in Spacefall.

Ironically, Vila WAS safe with Avon at the end of the episode.

And you could argue that Avon tries hard to hand leadership to Tarrant but when the latter is so dismal at it, he's forced to take over again ( Kairos) so he's a leader by default not conviction which alters his responsibility to the crew.


Especially considering how many times Avon saved Vila'so life in the past... Surely if someone should've been compelled to sacrifice himself it should've been Vila...
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
And also Vila is a criminal... a Norman Stanley Fletcher of the B7 Universe - and must know by now there's no honour amongst thieves. He's no Meegat.
Could Avon's final remark be to remind him of this?
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
Mistletoe12
sooper mouse wrote:

Anniew wrote:

Nobody seems to have questioned whether Vila should have done the 'decent' thing and sacrificed himself to save Avon....or commented on the fact that he suggests spacing Avon in Spacefall.

Ironically, Vila WAS safe with Avon at the end of the episode.

And you could argue that Avon tries hard to hand leadership to Tarrant but when the latter is so dismal at it, he's forced to take over again ( Kairos) so he's a leader by default not conviction which alters his responsibility to the crew.


Especially considering how many times Avon saved Vila'so life in the past... Surely if someone should've been compelled to sacrifice himself it should've been Vila...


Great points, well made Annie and SM. I completely agree with all the above.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

And also Vila is a criminal... a Norman Stanley Fletcher of the B7 Universe - and must know by now there's no honour amongst thieves. He's no Meegat.
Could Avon's final remark be to remind him of this?


Vila being a criminal in this is probably the smallest issue- nobody in that group was much of an innocent.
That being said, there are some interesting issues raised here
1. The Moral part
Why would Avon have to die for Vila's sake? Vila is not a child, nor is he helpless. He is a man in his own right. he is capable of looking after himself very well.
So why is it that Avon refusing to die for him means Avon is a bad person?

2. The practical part. Avon is a significantly more valuable person than Vila. Regardless how much one might sympathize with Vila, the guy is in fact a criminal and a moocher, and his contributions to the group are barely enough to justify his keep.
Vila is lazy and a coward. Avon is the one that even at his worst still tries and most of the time succeeds to keep his crew alive. We know they wouldn't make it without him, so his death could well mean the death of the whole crew anyway- none of them is capable of leading anything. WE see this in Harvest and we definitely see it on GP- "The fire was stupid. Putting Vila on guard was suicidal" which shows that not even Soolin, arguably the most even headed person in that crew was capable of thinking straight enough to look after the others even on her own home planet, where she was aware of the dangers.

There is also the part where Avon has constantly put his life in danger to save others countless times- like on Albian. He saved the lived of millions of people, and he didn't have to. He made the choice to put his bracelet down and try to defuse the bomb.
He also, by keeping the Liberator in the breach in the Andromedan war, possibly saved humanity- the victory was very very narrow as it was and it's not unlikely that humanity would've lost of they wouldn't have stayed there until everyone else arrived.
And let's not forget, That was Avon doing it. The rest of the crew were against staying, especially Vila. Avon led them to stay.


3. The noblesse part
AS stated before, the only reason Vila is still alive is because Avon saved his bacon on several occasions. Surely instead of acting as if he's entitled to have Avon sacrifice himself for him, the question should be- why isn't Vila for the first time in his life grateful and pays back all Avon did for him by sacrificing himself? Why does Vila's cowardice deserve this? Because he's more likable?

Let's not forget., this is not an "Avon wants to kill Vila to save himself" issue. It's either Vila dies or they both die. As Vila is not a pilot, even if Avon walked out the hatch Vila would still die ( assuming Avon even weighs 70 kilos with boots on). Avon was correct in his actions in Orbit. Vila continues to be an ungrateful POS
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
Random thought- Del Grant is a mercenary...he sells his skills for money and hires others to work for him. If he'd been on that shuttle with Vila...would he have spaced him? And if he did wouldn't he have said afterwards something like, " Regrettable but he knew the score when he signed on." ?

In the cases of Dr Plaxton and Vila, Avon's choice involved someone who would have died whatever he did unless he chose to sacrifice his own life for them. And by refusing to get sentimental about his choice ( or even sensitive) he's merely spelling out to the others the price of their survival and the futility of dwelling guiltily on it once you decide to pay the price.

It's not heroic, it's not romantic but it is truthful. In situations where life and death survival is not an issue you wouldn't take Avon as a role model but if I was fighting for my life and the lives of those I love I probably would: I'd do practically anything to save us ( even making Sophie's choice) and wouldn't apologise because if I allowed myself to feel the guilt and horror I wouldn't be able to carry on. It would incapacitate me.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Random thought- Del Grant is a mercenary...he sells his skills for money and hires others to work for him. If he'd been on that shuttle with Vila...would he have spaced him? And if he did wouldn't he have said afterwards something like, " Regrettable but he knew the score when he signed on." ?

In the cases of Dr Plaxton and Vila, Avon's choice involved someone who would have died whatever he did unless he chose to sacrifice his own life for them. And by refusing to get sentimental about his choice ( or even sensitive) he's merely spelling out to the others the price of their survival and the futility of dwelling guiltily on it once you decide to pay the price.

It's not heroic, it's not romantic but it is truthful. In situations where life and death survival is not an issue you wouldn't take Avon as a role model but if I was fighting for my life and the lives of those I love I probably would: I'd do practically anything to save us ( even making Sophie's choice) and wouldn't apologise because if I allowed myself to feel the guilt and horror I wouldn't be able to carry on. It would incapacitate me.


actually, in both cases, his sacrifice wouldn't have saved them.

In Stardrive, the choice isn't Dr Plaxton OR The rest of the crew. IF they didn't move, everyone including Dr Plaxton would have died. He just chose the option that saved most people. Whether dr Plaxton died fried up by the drive or when Scorpio was blown to pieces, she'd have been equally dead. But Avon's choice saves the crew and the ship. There is no choice where Avon could have died and Dr Plaxton would've survived.

In Orbit it's the same thing- Vila would've died anyway. He's not a pilot, and even if Avon would've thrown himself out, he'd have died regardless because he can't pilot the ship.
Avon's choice before he found the plastic cube is the same- the least possible damage is for Vila to die- Avon and Orac surviving also means the other three's continued survival since we already know they can't manage on their own.

Plus, like I said, Vila owes his life to Avon several times over. Yes there was a noble choice- similar to the one Gan made in P- Vila should've sacrificed himself for Avon instead of yet again hiding cowardly like he always does.
Vila is not worth dying for.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
SM, we were having a discussion not long ago, when I was defending Avon's actions in Stardrive, and you were saying he DID have an alternative: he could have helped her fit the Star Drive?

I don't think Avon does have any alternative in this episode - have you now changed your mind?

As for Orbit, my main problem is Avon's whole attitude about the thing afterwards. It stinks. He should have been showing regret at the actions he was forced into, and giving Orac a good kicking for coming up with THAT solution, but shows nothing. He's not the same man who had earnest and honest discussions with Jenna in Cygnus Alpha. He's a much lesser man than he was.

My problem is not what Avon does, it's his reactions to them. The "Who?" and the "You know you've safe with ME!". What a cold-blooded human being.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

SM, we were having a discussion not long ago, when I was defending Avon's actions in Stardrive, and you were saying he DID have an alternative: he could have helped her fit the Star Drive?

I don't think Avon does have any alternative in this episode - have you now changed your mind?

As for Orbit, my main problem is Avon's whole attitude about the thing afterwards. It stinks. He should have been showing regret at the actions he was forced into, and giving Orac a good kicking for coming up with THAT solution, but shows nothing. He's not the same man who had earnest and honest discussions with Jenna in Cygnus Alpha.

My problem is not what Avon does, it's his reactions to them. The "Who?" and the "You know you've safe with ME!". What a cold-blooded human being.


1well a case can be made that he needed to be on the deck to make the decisions since he is the leader and all.

That being said, I've said it before, playing advocatus diaboli is one of my least esotherical vices. Choice has a lot to do with the time when it is being made.
Choosing to help with the drive might have changed everything, but once the moment to make that choice had passed, Avon had no other choice left.

The who is rather ruthless then again we know how Avon feels about regret. What's the ointment in burdening oneself with things you can't change?
you can look at his remark to Vila at the end of Orbit as a sort of convoluted reproach " I saved your life so many times but you're making a fuss about the one time when I didn't have a choice" or maybe even "I saved your life so many times, ever considered returnin the favour"?
Like with everything else, Avon has the habit of expecting people to get his thinking and what he chooses to not say.
From his point of view, his decision on the shuttle was the correct one, so he doesn't need to justify it.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
From his point of view, his decision on the shuttle was the correct one, so he doesn't need to justify it.


But not from Vila's point of view and Vila deserves a proper explanation.

And did the whole thing occur simply because Avon asked Orac the wrong questions? Instead of asking Orac how they could lose weight, why not ask Orac what was causing the extra weight? Orac does seem to have a capability for calculating the weights of people and objects in the surrounding area. Ask Orac whereabouts the extra weight was on the shuttle. Job done.

Not a great day for Avon's supposed superior brain. Unfortunately, on this occasion, Soolin isn't in the immediate vicinity to save a bumbling Avon, like she does in Assassin and Warlord.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
From his point of view, his decision on the shuttle was the correct one, so he doesn't need to justify it.


But not from Vila's point of view and Vila deserves a proper explanation.


no he doesn't. Vila has no right to ever make any demands on Avon.
Not only that he wanted to kill Avon in Space fall, he is the reason why their mutiny on London failed, the cause of death of all the people who were killed by the crew, because he's so useless he dropped his gun.
Considering how many times Avon saved him, no, Vila has no right to complain, and since he isn't remotely pulling his own weight, Avon would be right to believe Vila's life is his to use as he pleases.


And did the whole thing occur simply because Avon asked Orac the wrong questions? Instead of asking Orac how they could lose weight, why not ask Orac what was causing the extra weight? Orac does seem to have a capability for calculating the weights of people and objects in the surrounding area. Ask Orac whereabouts the extra weight was on the shuttle. Job done.

He didn't ask Orac how they could lose the weight. He asked What weighs 70 kilos.
So the question is whether Orac even perceived where the extra weight came from.


Not a great day for Avon's supposed superior brain. Unfortunately, on this occasion, Soolin isn't in the immediate vicinity to save a bumbling Avon, like she does in Assassin and Warlord.


better than anyone else's though.
not like he managed to circumvent Egrorian and Servalan's plan or anything. oh wait. it's not like he figured it out and managed to solve the issue and didn't even have to drop the worthless ungrateful deadweight...

As for Soolin? A nice rear end doesn't make a good character. Considering that Soolin, on her own planet, thinks it's a good idea to both make a fire in an area filled with bounty hunters armed with heat detectors? and have Vila on guard? methinks the instances you mentioned are just a matter of a broken clock being right twice a day.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
He didn't ask Orac how they could lose the weight. He asked What weighs 70 kilos.


Exactly. The wrong question. The right question would have been: "Where on this shuttle is there weight where there shouldn't be?".

Orac is a very sophisticated computer, but still a computer. Avon gave Orac the wrong problem to solve. And what's Avon specialist subject? Computers. Whoops.

As for Soolin, if she wasn't around, Avon would have died in embarrassing circumstances in "Assassin". Wink She's often described as a 'female Avon', but I think she actually has far more common sense than he does, and also far less ego. Although it would make far less dramatic television if Soolin was in charge, because she wouldn't be making mistakes week after week after week, like Avon does in the final season.
Edited by trevor travis on 11 January 2017 16:03:10
 
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