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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Soolin
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

Sooper Mouse I meant a father FIGURE. I suspect some abuse from men, perhaps after the death of her family. There had to be a reason for Soolin's escape. Either she was mutoided but at some point the process was successfully reversed or more likely she was taken by the leader of the group who killed her family and groomed for pleasure. Perhaps as part of the process ( if she was very young) becoming too damaged to breed - hence her later willingness to accept a life as Dorians well paid companion. But it could also have made her sensitive and even a little sentimental about young love hence her willingness to help zeeona escape or more likely, just getting one over on two controlling men, Zukan and Avon may have been sufficient motivation - a way of saying to Avon, " You've hired me not bought me ...I do what seems right to me and you're welcome to try and take me out if you don't like it...just remember my skills with a gun. ".

If she hasn't got a motivation like this, then it's extremely silly of her to annoy both Avon and Zukan, jeopardise the alliance and compromise their safety as a result. She's also letting a potential enemy know where their base is ( Zeeona could easily inform Zukan who might be sufficiently annoyed to shop them to the Feds or even attack them himself.)

There has to be some deep seated psychology behind both her willingness to be hired by Dorian and Avon and to risk offending another controlling father figure Zukan and for me a grooming scenario with non consensual sex from an early age, leading to mixed feelings of safety, familiarity and latent deep hatred is a possible explanation.


what concerns me about Soolin is that her instincts aren't that good- she lived there with Dorian for how long and not figure him out?
And let's not forget how she fails miserably on her own home planet in Blake- do I even need to mention the "fire was stupid. Putting Vila on guard was suicidal"? They'd have died without yet again Avon saving their hides.

So she is untrustworthy and putting her personal feelings ahead of her job... she might have gotten it right a couple of times but like everyone else she is well, even worse than Tarrant.

It's almost as if Avon's problems in S4 stem from the fact that he is entirely surrounded by idiots.

Maybe the final season would've gone better if he wouldn't have been burdened with that mass of nincompoops
Edited by sooper mouse on 12 January 2017 16:36:04
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
It's almost as if Avon's problems in S4 stem from the fact that he is entirely surrounded by idiots.


So you're choosing to ignore the two times that Soolin saves Avon's life? Or Avon's idiotic behaviour through "Assassin" ? Or Avon's stupid decision at the start of "Stardrive", in getting far too close to the asteroid? Or the rest of the crew having to destroy the android in "Headhunter" because Avon is too conceited to see that has to happen? Or the way Avon is so easily out-thought by Servalan at the end of "Gold"?

It seems to be to me that the biggest idiot of all is Avon. After all, either directly or indirectly he causes and/or helps to cause the death/destruction of: Liberator, Zen, Cally, Scorpio, Slave, Blake, Dayna, Vila, Soolin and Tarrant. Some list that.

He's a HUGELY flawed character. But I guess that's part of the fascination of the show. These people are realistic, rather than perfect.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
It's almost as if Avon's problems in S4 stem from the fact that he is entirely surrounded by idiots.


So you're choosing to ignore the two times that Soolin saves Avon's life? Or Avon's idiotic behaviour through "Assassin" ? Or Avon's stupid decision at the start of "Stardrive", in getting far too close to the asteroid? Or the rest of the crew having to destroy the android in "Headhunter" because Avon is too conceited to see that has to happen? Or the way Avon is so easily out-thought by Servalan at the end of "Gold"?

It seems to be to me that the biggest idiot of all is Avon. After all, either directly or indirectly he causes and/or helps to cause the death/destruction of: Liberator, Zen, Cally, Scorpio, Slave, Blake, Dayna, Vila, Soolin and Tarrant. Some list that.

He's a HUGELY flawed character. But I guess that's part of the fascination of the show. These people are realistic, rather than perfect.


even a broken clock is wrong twice a day.
Avon said from the beginning the whole thing in Gold was a scam. I always intepreted it as Avon wanting to let it run its course to see who exactly was behind it. There might just be the fact that he led the crew on a bit as they may not have gone along with it if they knew he expected it to not work.

Avon's decision in the beginning of star drive does kind of make sense... to a point. Again, remember that hindsight is always 20/20, but the characters don't have the luxury of it.
Or Maybe Tarrant just isn't that great of a pilot to pull it off Pfft

and Tarrant's hormones are definitely at fault for Assassin.

As for the destruction... hmmm
Blake caused his own. And if he wasn't a stupid manipulative SOB and would have actually returned to Liberator instead of running away like a coward, none of the rest would've happened. Avon just got stuck with the bill for Blake's idiocy, a leadership he didn't want and a bunch of clingers. A poisoned chalice as it were.
If Blake would have been anything near a decent human being he'd have returned to Libby and make arrangements that would've kept his agreement with Avon, instead of running away and leaving Avon in a mess.


Not Avon's fault they got shot down above GP. To be fair, you want to place blame, it should go on Orac, who bullied Slave into silence.

Liberator and Zen count as one, so do Scorpio and Slave.
Cally? meh, I hated her guts. Stupid character. Selfish ( her stupid auronar issues should always be followed but she is a bad friend to Avon and incapable of even a little bit of empathy towards him when he needed it in ROD), boring and useless as anything but a forced character ploy. Jenna was right, Blake shouldn't have brought Cally on board.

WE don't actually know whether Tarrant, Dayna, Soolin and Vila died- no blood. Only Klyn and Blake are explicitly dead in canon.
Edited by sooper mouse on 12 January 2017 20:41:36
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:Avon said from the beginning the whole thing in Gold was a scam.


And yet he still goes through with it, and nearly gets everyone killed.

Watching B7 in order, a common thought is that Blake is the worst-ever leader. And then Avon takes over, and you realise there's one man who is even worse than Blake!
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:Avon said from the beginning the whole thing in Gold was a scam.


And yet he still goes through with it, and nearly gets everyone killed.

Watching B7 in order, a common thought is that Blake is the worst-ever leader. And then Avon takes over, and you realise there's one man who is even worse than Blake!


because when someone springs you a trap, you want to know who did it.

The difference is, Avon didn't want to be leader. He wanted the ship, and that was his deal with Blake.
Blake's the one who decided he wouldn't come back, and left Avon to deal with a crew he didn't want and the rest of stuff coming from Blake's stupid ideas.
Blake chose to not return. He never took responsibility for his actions, just sodded off with Jenna, so he could run around playing the saint and not have to deal with any of the consequences of his actions.

Plus, getting everyone killed would make Avon's life easier- babysitting is hard work.
Edited by sooper mouse on 12 January 2017 20:52:49
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Travis8845
sooper mouse wrote:

The difference is, Avon didn't want to be leader. He wanted the ship, and that was his deal with Blake.


And yet, Avon was looking for him in Volcano and found him in Blake. Silly man. Silly, silly man. (Avon, not you.)
 
sooper mouse
Travis8845 wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

The difference is, Avon didn't want to be leader. He wanted the ship, and that was his deal with Blake.


And yet, Avon was looking for him in Volcano and found him in Blake. Silly man. Silly, silly man. (Avon, not you.)


of course he was looking for Blake. Avon cares about Blake ( as per Chris Boucher). Avon's life would've been a lot easier if he didn't.
Edited by sooper mouse on 12 January 2017 21:00:56
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Blake's the one who decided he wouldn't come back, and left Avon to deal with a crew he didn't want and the rest of stuff coming from Blake's stupid idea.


No, it's never stated that's what happened. It could be equally possible that Avon simply decided not to have Blake back. After all, we hear nothing about Avon searching for him between Dawn Of The Gods and Death-Watch.

On balance of probabilities, I would say Avon deliberately chose not to have Blake back.

sooper mouse wrote:
Blake chose to not return. He never took responsibility for his actions, just sodded off with Jenna, so he could run around playing the saint and not have to deal with any of the consequences of his actions.


That's definitely not stated on screen. In fact, we know that Blake and Jenna were in two totally different locations in the aftermath of the war, so it's hardly the case that they "sodded off" together. And it's only during Blake's 'test' with Tarrant, that he refers to Jenna. We have no concrete evidence that Blake and Jenna ever met again after the war.

Even if they did, Blake was never interested in Jenna, just his cause! Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed... he'd be too translating the Federation's messages. Wink
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:babysitting is hard work.


It is. Poor Soolin had to babysit both dumb (Tarrant) and dumber (Avon) all the way through Assassin. Wink
 
Travis8845
sooper mouse wrote:

Travis8845 wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

The difference is, Avon didn't want to be leader. He wanted the ship, and that was his deal with Blake.


And yet, Avon was looking for him in Volcano and found him in Blake. Silly man. Silly, silly man. (Avon, not you.)


of course he was looking for Blake. Avon cares about Blake ( as per Chris Boucher). Avon's life would've been a lot easier if he didn't.


Caring for Blake has nothing to do with looking for him. In Blake he says he has known where Blake was for a while and would have left him there if he didn't need him.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Blake's the one who decided he wouldn't come back, and left Avon to deal with a crew he didn't want and the rest of stuff coming from Blake's stupid idea.


No, it's never stated that's what happened. It could be equally possible that Avon simply decided not to have Blake back. After all, we hear nothing about Avon searching for him between Dawn Of The Gods and Death-Watch.

On balance of probabilities, I would say Avon deliberately chose not to have Blake back.

sooper mouse wrote:
Blake chose to not return. He never took responsibility for his actions, just sodded off with Jenna, so he could run around playing the saint and not have to deal with any of the consequences of his actions.


That's definitely not stated on screen. In fact, we know that Blake and Jenna were in two totally different locations in the aftermath of the war, so it's hardly the case that they "sodded off" together. And it's only during Blake's 'test' with Tarrant, that he refers to Jenna. We have no concrete evidence that Blake and Jenna ever met again after the war.

Even if they did, Blake was never interested in Jenna, just his cause! Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed... he'd be too translating the Federation's messages. Wink


it's kinda hard to find someone who doesn't want to be found.
Blake did get in touch with Zen and didn't request to be picked up. Also, him and Jenna left together as per Aftermath, and Jenna didn't ask to be picked up either.
Also, Avon had Orac and Blake knew. If Blake would've wanted to be found he could have sent a message.

And yes, poor Jenna.
see, it's funny- is there room for two in those life pods? Was Blake in a pod that was linked to jenna's? did Jenna uncoupled it willingly because maybe just maybe she wanted to be free of Blake too??
Because if they were in the same pod- we are told in Aftermath "Blake is with jenna" then Jenna willingly left Blake.
Edited by sooper mouse on 12 January 2017 21:21:59
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Travis8845 wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

Travis8845 wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

The difference is, Avon didn't want to be leader. He wanted the ship, and that was his deal with Blake.


And yet, Avon was looking for him in Volcano and found him in Blake. Silly man. Silly, silly man. (Avon, not you.)


of course he was looking for Blake. Avon cares about Blake ( as per Chris Boucher). Avon's life would've been a lot easier if he didn't.


Caring for Blake has nothing to do with looking for him. In Blake he says he has known where Blake was for a while and would have left him there if he didn't need him.


Oh but it does- if it didn't Avon's life would have been a lot easier.
When Avon thought that Blake called him, he went after him without blinking.

It is possible that at some point Avon realised Blake didn't want to be found, so even when he found him he decided to leave him alone. Possibly he's been monitoring Blake to ensure he was alive, and he would've gone to his aid if he thought Blake was in danger.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Blake's the one who decided he wouldn't come back, and left Avon to deal with a crew he didn't want and the rest of stuff coming from Blake's stupid idea.


No, it's never stated that's what happened. It could be equally possible that Avon simply decided not to have Blake back. After all, we hear nothing about Avon searching for him between Dawn Of The Gods and Death-Watch.

On balance of probabilities, I would say Avon deliberately chose not to have Blake back.

sooper mouse wrote:
Blake chose to not return. He never took responsibility for his actions, just sodded off with Jenna, so he could run around playing the saint and not have to deal with any of the consequences of his actions.


That's definitely not stated on screen. In fact, we know that Blake and Jenna were in two totally different locations in the aftermath of the war, so it's hardly the case that they "sodded off" together. And it's only during Blake's 'test' with Tarrant, that he refers to Jenna. We have no concrete evidence that Blake and Jenna ever met again after the war.

Even if they did, Blake was never interested in Jenna, just his cause! Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed... he'd be too translating the Federation's messages. Wink


it's stated on screen they left together.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
it's stated on screen they left together.


No, it's stated: "Jenna's gone with Blake".

Gone to the other set of life capsules, presumably. Blake might have required some assistance getting into his, depending on how his injury was doing.

They are one-man capsules and both Blake and Jenna are reported to be in different places throughout Aftermath and Powerplay.
 
Anniew
Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed...


Never mind back stories - THAT'S a scene I'd like to have seen included. Especially as, given how competitive Avon and Jenna are, he'd probably have joined her there.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
which can mean "Jenna flew out with Blake" or "Jenna took Blake to the other life pods"

Chris Boucher is the patron saint of ambiguity.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed...


Never mind back stories - THAT'S a scene I'd like to have seen included. Especially as, given how competitive Avon and Jenna are, he'd probably have joined her there.


BLAKE: Avon, youíve got no clothes on.
AVON: Probably.
JENNA: Iím naked as well, Blake.
BLAKE: Sorry, Jenna, I hadnít noticed. Oh look, thereís a cobweb in that corner. Jenna, fetch the hoover!
Edited by trevor travis on 13 January 2017 16:00:05
 
Anniew
Yes... brilliant!!!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Anniew wrote:

Jenna could have stood atop the Cypher Machine naked, and Blake wouldn't have noticed...


Never mind back stories - THAT'S a scene I'd like to have seen included. Especially as, given how competitive Avon and Jenna are, he'd probably have joined her there.


BLAKE: Avon, youíve got no clothes on.
AVON: Probably.
JENNA: Iím naked as well, Blake.
BLAKE: Sorry, Jenna, I hadnít noticed. On look, thereís a cobweb in that corner. Jenna, fetch the hoover!


actually Avon would've probably said "demonstrably"

also... that cobweb thing sounds rather... intriguing.

Then Blake will continue by telling Avon to go get dressed which means that Avon will continue to prance around naked all day just because.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Travis8845
sooper mouse wrote:

which can mean "Jenna flew out with Blake" or "Jenna took Blake to the other life pods"

Chris Boucher is the patron saint of ambiguity.


No, because as Trevor Travis said, "They are one-man capsules and both Blake and Jenna are reported to be in different places throughout Aftermath and Powerplay."
 
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