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Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
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Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

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Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

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Other
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
Spaceship Dispatcher
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

You misunderstand, I stand by comment about the Blake we see on Gauda Prime, that comment about him being merciless and paranoid. I wasn't trying to say anything about his bounty hunting.

And I wasn't trying to suggest that Blake was the greatest leader of all time, I was merely using the saying to help get across my point. Whilst Blake might be a good leader for the rebellion, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he would be a good civil leader.

Thanks for the clarification on those points, but there is a comment you made in the same post that I would also like to understand better; you said: "He used to be a man who left a powerful alien battleship in the hands of a man who had not only pulled a gun on him but who made no attempt to hide his plan to abandon Blake the first chance he got. He's been reduced to playing dangerous games of manipulation in order to test others. Something, somewhere has gone wrong in his head and he is a different man to the one who went down to Star One" But you also said previously that you believed that Blake's true personality was the one we witnessed in the final episode, that his apparently personable character in s1/2 was caused by amnesia from the mental conditioning. So has he recovered his natural personality (your first post) or has something 'gone wrong in his head' (your later post) as these appear to be contradictory conclusions...
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
JustBrad
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:


Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry


Well, it was wartime, and he was a great leader. He even got Avon to follow him...
For a while... and then.... Angry
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
JustBrad wrote:

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:


Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry


Well, it was wartime, and he was a great leader. He even got Avon to follow him...
For a while... and then.... Angry

Well, maybe he was a great leader until half way through Spacefall... Grin
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
JustBrad wrote:

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:


Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry


Well, it was wartime, and he was a great leader. He even got Avon to follow him...
For a while... and then.... Angry


A great leader? What did he ever achieve then? Shock
 
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:

JustBrad wrote:

Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:


Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry


Well, it was wartime, and he was a great leader. He even got Avon to follow him...
For a while... and then.... Angry


A great leader? What did he ever achieve then? Shock


Exactly. It's easy to be the leader when you're winning and everything is great.
It's a much harder job to keep a disparate (and desperate) team together when things are not going well, and when did things ever go well for Blake et al?

I suspect we agree at the core. Essentially we are bandying semantics. I mean 'great leader' as in 'able to motivate individuals with dissimilar goals and beliefs to work as a team in difficult circumstances.'
You mean 'great leader' as in 'successful.'
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
JustBrad wrote:

I suspect we agree at the core. Essentially we are bandying semantics. I mean 'great leader' as in 'able to motivate individuals with dissimilar goals and beliefs to work as a team in difficult circumstances.'

But if that motivation is the consequence of manipulation, coercion and the threat of abandonment is it really truly great or just a sort faux-greatness that's merely a facade?
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
JustBrad
Okay, I'm totally following you on manipulation. As a branch manager for a Hazmat supplier it's what I do every day. The best manipulation makes you think my idea was actually your idea. Blake is constantly manipulating. That does not make him a bad leader, except when he gets caught. Manipulation is better than giving orders and saying, 'Because I'm the leader."

But please elaborate on 'Threat of Abandonment.' The only TofA I can recall off the top of my head is Tarrant threatening to dump Vila in City...
 
Grade Four Ignorant
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
Thanks for the clarification on those points, but there is a comment you made in the same post that I would also like to understand better; you said: "He used to be a man who left a powerful alien battleship in the hands of a man who had not only pulled a gun on him but who made no attempt to hide his plan to abandon Blake the first chance he got. He's been reduced to playing dangerous games of manipulation in order to test others. Something, somewhere has gone wrong in his head and he is a different man to the one who went down to Star One" But you also said previously that you believed that Blake's true personality was the one we witnessed in the final episode, that his apparently personable character in s1/2 was caused by amnesia from the mental conditioning. So has he recovered his natural personality (your first post) or has something 'gone wrong in his head' (your later post) as these appear to be contradictory conclusions...


I was only working with conjecture, but something has gone wrong with Blake. Whether it's his original personality reasserting itself or changes brought about due to something that happened since he left Liberator, I don't know. It could even have been the death of Jenna - the last member of the Seven still working with him - that pushed him over the edge and left him bitter.
 
JustBrad
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:


I was only working with conjecture, but something has gone wrong with Blake. Whether it's his original personality reasserting itself or changes brought about due to something that happened since he left Liberator, I don't know. It could even have been the death of Jenna - the last member of the Seven still working with him - that pushed him over the edge and left him bitter.


Or the fall of the disillusioned idealist?
 
trevor travis
JustBrad wrote:

Okay, I'm totally following you on manipulation. As a branch manager for a Hazmat supplier it's what I do every day. The best manipulation makes you think my idea was actually your idea. Blake is constantly manipulating. That does not make him a bad leader, except when he gets caught. Manipulation is better than giving orders and saying, 'Because I'm the leader."

But please elaborate on 'Threat of Abandonment.' The only TofA I can recall off the top of my head is Tarrant threatening to dump Vila in City...


It would appear there was a discussion at some point between “Cygnus Alpha” and “Time Squad”:

AVON: “Neither do I. I thought it was agreed we wouldn't do anything without discussing it thoroughly.”
BLAKE: “True. It was also agreed that anybody could opt out at any time. Just tell me when you want to leave.”

After that, we have frequent references to the “choice” given to Avon by Blake e.g. in “Duel”:

BLAKE: “Have you got any better ideas?”
AVON: “As a matter of fact, no I haven't.”
BLAKE: “Does that mean you agree?”
AVON: “Do I have a choice?”
BLAKE: “Yes.”
AVON: “Then I agree.”

The inference is that the “choice” appears to be... do it my way or get off the Liberator.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Thanks for looking that up for me TT Grin

For me, Blake is saying "I'm in charge here, join the rebellion or get off; the alternative to subjection to my will is to face the Federation as a wanted person alone..."
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 25 February 2014 21:18:45
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
JustBrad
The full quote, for context.

CALLY Many, many people will die without Star One.
BLAKE I know.

CALLY Are you sure that what we're going to do is justified?

BLAKE It has to be. Don't you see, Cally? If we stop now then all we have done is senseless killing and destruction. Without purpose, without reason. We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right.

CALLY That you were right?


This actually plays back to some of the egotism argument if you read Cally's line as unfinished, the remainder being, "Don't you mean that we were right?"

'We' referring to the entire resistence movement, not just Blake / Cally or the Liberator.
 
Spaceresearcher
Nope, your all very wrong. Blake definitely has a plan and is trying to continue his original goal. The fact he doesn't kill any of the crew is a proof in itself. His actions towards Avon are the same as when he first met him from what I can see. His dying words are like he's trying to say: "Avon, I always trusted you...".

In short, Blake has been through hell by the time he's found on Gauda Prime. No doubt he's had so much betrayal and treachery thrown at him by this time and the chaos after the great war that he would have good cause to doubt himself and question what he's become. Never the less, he still continues to do what he believes is right in the face of it all.

Season 4 to me, was like Avon's search for Blake, who I'm certain he looked upon as someone who had an inner determination he'd never encountered before. Add to that, Blake is also extremely selfless. He'd give his own life if it meant freedom for all. The proof has got to be The Liberator. There's riches beyond belief. Even Avon considers just running off with the ship and living happily ever after(Jenna strongly disagree's with him though). Blake on the other hand is prepared to throw it all into the goal of beating the ruthless Federation. Avon is like someone who complains about Politicians and adopts the 'you will never change the system' philosophy. Blake on the other hand throws his heart and soul into at the very least trying to make the change. He's also deeply concerned for the welfare of his team and mourns for Gan. He also rescues Cally(the list goes on).

We learn that Avon initially has nothing but contemp and perhaps some curiosity for Blake, but as the series progresses he see's logic and perhaps a meaning in Blakes way.

For me, Avon sees in Blake, a man he wishes he was. This is proven in Season 4 where he's on an almost relentless quest to find Blake. (It's another reason why the end really makes no sense at all. No matter what, Avon would have at least found a way to interrogate Blake before killing him, if that's what he finally boiled the choice down to, but ultimately he new Blake had leadership qualities he could never have. Even Avon himself grew admiration for Blake and his quest became perhaps contagious and impossible to ignore.

After all, without Blake, there's no way he would have gone from being simply an introverted computer hacker to someone who assisted in almost bringing down the most corrupt organisation humanity has ever known.

To me, Avon wanted to steal as much as he could from the Federation banks in order to deal them a blow they would never forget for some rather sad events. Blake on the other hand, wanted to bring them to destruction to usher fourth a new age of freedom and hope.

For Avon, the dream was too large for him to believe it 100%, however as the series progresses, he's drawn to Blake like a magnet, perhaps stunned and amazed that his at times mad plans actually work.

Yes, there's still a Federation in Season 4, however it's a much weaker(perhaps a lot weaker) Federation.

Pauls idea of new organisations springing up to take over is a great idea as that's surely what would go down and fits with Terry Nations ideas in this regard(eg, in Survivors for example, we see many groups all deciding to be the new power of authority on the plague ridden world. I'm fairly confident that would have been reflected in Blakes 7 as well after Season 4 had he written a Season 5).
 
Spaceresearcher
Each small candle lights a corner of the dark. Blake lighted a very large corner of the dark.
 
peladon
Spaceresearcher wrote:

Nope, your all very wrong. Blake definitely has a plan and is trying to continue his original goal. The fact he doesn't kill any of the crew is a proof in itself. His actions towards Avon are the same as when he first met him from what I can see. His dying words are like he's trying to say: "Avon, I always trusted you...".

In short, Blake has been through hell by the time he's found on Gauda Prime. No doubt he's had so much betrayal and treachery thrown at him by this time and the chaos after the great war that he would have good cause to doubt himself and question what he's become. Never the less, he still continues to do what he believes is right in the face of it all.

Season 4 to me, was like Avon's search for Blake, who I'm certain he looked upon as someone who had an inner determination he'd never encountered before. Add to that, Blake is also extremely selfless. He'd give his own life if it meant freedom for all. The proof has got to be The Liberator. There's riches beyond belief. Even Avon considers just running off with the ship and living happily ever after(Jenna strongly disagree's with him though). Blake on the other hand is prepared to throw it all into the goal of beating the ruthless Federation. Avon is like someone who complains about Politicians and adopts the 'you will never change the system' philosophy. Blake on the other hand throws his heart and soul into at the very least trying to make the change. He's also deeply concerned for the welfare of his team and mourns for Gan. He also rescues Cally(the list goes on).

We learn that Avon initially has nothing but contemp and perhaps some curiosity for Blake, but as the series progresses he see's logic and perhaps a meaning in Blakes way.

For me, Avon sees in Blake, a man he wishes he was. This is proven in Season 4 where he's on an almost relentless quest to find Blake. (It's another reason why the end really makes no sense at all. No matter what, Avon would have at least found a way to interrogate Blake before killing him, if that's what he finally boiled the choice down to, but ultimately he new Blake had leadership qualities he could never have. Even Avon himself grew admiration for Blake and his quest became perhaps contagious and impossible to ignore.

After all, without Blake, there's no way he would have gone from being simply an introverted computer hacker to someone who assisted in almost bringing down the most corrupt organisation humanity has ever known.

To me, Avon wanted to steal as much as he could from the Federation banks in order to deal them a blow they would never forget for some rather sad events. Blake on the other hand, wanted to bring them to destruction to usher fourth a new age of freedom and hope.

For Avon, the dream was too large for him to believe it 100%, however as the series progresses, he's drawn to Blake like a magnet, perhaps stunned and amazed that his at times mad plans actually work.

Yes, there's still a Federation in Season 4, however it's a much weaker(perhaps a lot weaker) Federation.

Pauls idea of new organisations springing up to take over is a great idea as that's surely what would go down and fits with Terry Nations ideas in this regard(eg, in Survivors for example, we see many groups all deciding to be the new power of authority on the plague ridden world. I'm fairly confident that would have been reflected in Blakes 7 as well after Season 4 had he written a Season 5).


There is no evidence whatsoever the Avon is looking for Blake in S4. In as much as its about anything sensible (and I agree with you about the end) its about their attempts to stay alive in a hostile world without the Liberator. The Federation is tottering in S3 ( the most likely outcome of a war on that scale), but it gets some unexplained and unlikely shot in the arm in S4 and so remains a threat to be avoided.

Nor is there any reason, within the context of the series and outside of fanfic ,to assume that Avon saw Blake as being extraordinary in any way, or that he viewed Blake in a manner that gave rise to a particular emotional or psychological attachement different to that he has with the rest of the crew. Well aside from the fact that the others side with Blake in a way that traps him in a situation he dislikes. He is however drawn into it and as part of that builds a comrade in arms relationship with them all as would be expected.Nor is there any evidence that he sees logic or meaning in Blakes fight.

I cant see an justification in canon to assume that Avon was ever an introverted computer hacker, in fact what little we know of his background suggests that he wasnt.

Avon probably could lead but he had no desire to, the two things are different.
'
His attempt on the banks is before Anna Grant not after and I'd suggest he tells us why he did it - to be safe and untouchable. We never know why he feels that need so that does allow for speculation.....
Edited by peladon on 02 March 2014 19:58:56
 
trevor travis
Spaceresearcher wrote:
This is proven in Season 4 where he's on an almost relentless quest to find Blake.


Eh? Are you sure?

The only time Avon tries to find Blake in Season D is in the final episode. The only time. And only because his plans from "Warlord" have gone so wrong.
 
Asteria occulta
Not much Blake lately, so there goes.

The beast in me
Is caged by frail and fragile bars
Restless by day
And by night rants and rages at the stars
God help the beast in me

The beast in me
Has had to learn to live with pain
And how to shelter from the rain
And in the twinkling of an eye
Might have to be restrained
God help the beast in me

Sometimes it tries to kid me
That it's just a teddy bear
And even somehow manage to vanish in the air
And that is when I must beware
Of the beast in me that everybody knows
They've seen him out dressed in my clothes
Patently unclear
If it's New York or New Year
God help the beast in me

The beast in me
Johnny Cash

When I first stumbled into this song, I thought : ''Blake! This is Blake!''. And I find echoes of Avon in ''Hurt'' too.
I may grow older, but I'll never grow up.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
My understanding is that by the events of Blake, Avon has known that Blake is on Gauda Prime for quite some time. He was happy leaving Blake to his own devices until the Warlord Alliance collapsed and Xenon Base was destroyed. Avon figured that if Blake was working with a resistance group, he'd at least be able to offer them sanctuary. Avon's flaw is that he didn't seem to bother contacting Blake before they arrived.
 
Vanessa Doffenshmirtz
Spaceresearcher wrote:

He's also deeply concerned for the welfare of his team and mourns for Gan.


I sort of disagree since Blake was the only one we saw mourning for Gan and even then it was a huge LOOK AT ME gesture that Blake pulled to cover it.

I think both Cally and Vila in thier own ways were mourning for Gan, Jenna would hav covered her true feeling with her usual mask of efficiency and Avon added another tally mark against Blake.
I used to be such a sweet sweet thing
Till they got a hold of me.
 
magnificat
.
Edited by magnificat on 07 May 2014 09:31:24
 
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