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Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

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Blake
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

trevor travis wrote:
And at no point, does Blake try to persuade Jenna not to put him onto a pedestal.


As for his encouargement of Jenna? Evidence please.


Where did I say he encourages Jenna?

I said he doesn't try to persuade her differently, when she starts to put him on a pedestal.

Two different things.
 
Spaceresearcher
On the topic of the Blake in the final episode, I've always viewed it more as a cop out by the BBC and premature ending to a terrific series. I like Chris Boucher's work, but this story still leaves me annoyed with him.

I would have loved to have seen the final episode with Terry Nation writing it.

I'm certain he would have showed us very different Blake.
 
President Solvite
trevor travis wrote:

BLAKE: "No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man."
AVON: "Have you ever met an honest man?"
JENNA: [Glances at Blake] "Perhaps."

Blake considers himself as "the honest man" (he uses the word first); he clearly wants to be placed on a pedestal.

Once you're on a pedestal, there's only one way you can go...


I don't read his words like that, his meaning (as I read it!) is the honest man is some other 3rd party. He is reluctant to take power as is often claimed (VFtP). I think Blake sees himself as a 'Joe average', but the honest man referred to is someone else by my reckoning.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

BLAKE: "No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man."
AVON: "Have you ever met an honest man?"
JENNA: [Glances at Blake] "Perhaps."

Blake considers himself as "the honest man" (he uses the word first); he clearly wants to be placed on a pedestal.

Once you're on a pedestal, there's only one way you can go...


I don't read his words like that, his meaning (as I read it!) is the honest man is some other 3rd party. He is reluctant to take power as is often claimed (VFtP). I think Blake sees himself as a 'Joe average', but the honest man referred to is someone else by my reckoning.


If Blake sees himself as Mr Joe Average, then how come we get:

"I've done it" in Pressure Point

AND

"We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right" in Star One.
 
Spaceresearcher
trevor travis wrote:

President Solvite wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

BLAKE: "No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man."
AVON: "Have you ever met an honest man?"
JENNA: [Glances at Blake] "Perhaps."

Blake considers himself as "the honest man" (he uses the word first); he clearly wants to be placed on a pedestal.

Once you're on a pedestal, there's only one way you can go...


I don't read his words like that, his meaning (as I read it!) is the honest man is some other 3rd party. He is reluctant to take power as is often claimed (VFtP). I think Blake sees himself as a 'Joe average', but the honest man referred to is someone else by my reckoning.


If Blake sees himself as Mr Joe Average, then how come we get:

"I've done it" in Pressure Point

AND

"We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right" in Star One.


Because those are comments reflecting his guilt on decisions which have cost the lives not just of a member of the Seven, but of many resistance fighters who believe in his cause.
 
trevor travis
Spaceresearcher wrote:
Because those are comments reflecting his guilt on decisions which have cost the lives not just of a member of the Seven, but of many resistance fighters who believe in his cause.


How is saying "I've done it" rather than "We've done it" reflecting on guilt?

Surely "We've done it" would have been an acknowledgement of all those to have lost their lives - saying "I've done it" is just egotism.
Edited by trevor travis on 24 February 2014 12:02:02
 
President Solvite


If Blake sees himself as Mr Joe Average, then how come we get:

"I've done it" in Pressure Point

AND

"We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right" in Star One.


The two are not mutually exclusive. With the former I sense that it is a premature relief that they had experienced success where others had failed and a reaction to a tantalising possiblity that Federation control could be halted. IE. A new beginning to all the suppressed citizens who will have a chance of genuine peace rather than peace of a gun (or piece of a gun and summary execution - for many innocents witnessed)

Whilst I appreciate this may rankle with some that Blake in this instance seems to dismiss other people's efforts, this is more of an indicator in my view of emotional relief than an excessive egotistical trait. Avon's 'histrionics' I dont think are an accurate enough assessment on Blake's character and motives. The same is true with the mentioned quote in Star One. Blake wanted closure on his struggle, emotionally and practically. We have had frequent references to his dead colleagues and friends and it was a chance to bring closure for himself, hence the reference 'I was right' I sensed that he was going to opt out after this achievement and let others rally and continue. Cally's query 'you were right' was surprise at this prospect as if things were to work out as planned, the struggle would still be far from over. Or the cynical amongst us would see that as an annoyance that Blake is seemingly dismissing others devotion to the cause and Blake going on some egotistical 'road trip'. It boils down to I suppose about what you want to believe.

Blake might have have seemed to be overly dramatic in saving/helping 'his friend' Avon in the Web. No doubt Avon would counterclaim it was all an act. I suppose it all depends on who you believe and what you want to hear in words that get spoken. Being cynical doesnt always make one right of course, indeed the biggest cynic of them all, Avon makes a bigger hash of things than Blake was ever accused of by getting them all killed on Gauda Prime.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:
Blake might have have seemed to be overly dramatic in saving/helping 'his friend' Avon in the Web. No doubt Avon would counterclaim it was all an act. I suppose it all depends on who you believe and what you want to hear in words that get spoken. Being cynical doesnt always make one right of course, indeed the biggest cynic of them all, Avon makes a bigger hash of things than Blake was ever accused of by getting them all killed on Gauda Prime.


Oh yes, Avon stuffs things up big time twice, no doubt about it. He falls into an obvious Servalan trap in "Terminal", managing to destroy both Zen and the Liberator along the way, and then fouls up again on Gauda Prime... although Blake, with his stupid trust games, is equally to blame for that one.

But it doesn't detract in any way from the way Blake behaves throughout "Pressure Point". Just look at this exchange:

GAN: "Blake, we're going to have to pull out."
BLAKE: "It's a setback, but we've come this far. It means a change of plan, but I'd still like to try for it."
GAN: "What's the use? The risks are doubled now."
BLAKE: "I'm not so sure. Kasabi was only giving us backup cover, holding off the security forces to give us time to penetrate the Forbidden Zone."
GAN: "Yes, so how can we hope to do it without her?"
BLAKE: "We still have the element of surprise. Even more so now with Kasabi's force wiped out, security aren't going to expect another assault so soon."
GAN: "You're guessing, Blake, guessing and hoping."
BLAKE: "It is a calculated risk. Remember, we've got one foolproof factor: the teleport. Even if they do attack, we can still get out. We will have failed, but at least we'll be alive."
GAN: "It's still a big risk."
BLAKE: "It always was. Even with Kasabi's people, there were no guarantees."
GAN: "All right, well, what do we do next, what do we do now?"
BLAKE: "We carry on as planned. The next step is still up to Avon and Vila."

Gan raises real concerns, but Blake just won't listen. And yet earlier in the episode we had:

JENNA: "Blake, we've decided to come with you."
BLAKE: "Thank you. I could do with all the help I can get."
JENNA: "There is a condition."
BLAKE: "Yes?"
JENNA: "None of us is prepared to commit suicide. We don't intend to die making some heroic gesture."
CALLY: "We need a chance of survival."
VILA: "We want your word that if the mission looks impossible, then we'll pull out."
GAN: "Yes. Guarantee that, and we're all with you."
BLAKE: "It's understood the decision is mine and mine alone?"
CALLY: "Yes, that is understood."
GAN: "Yes."
BLAKE: "All right, if it looks as if we have less than an even chance, I promise I'll call the whole thing off."

Blake goes back on his word. Later on, the risks get very high, but he doesn't call it off. Avon is nearly killed running across the minefield; Gan nearly killed on the bars. And yet Blake still ploughs on. He was very lucky not to kill the whole group.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis - I'm leaning towards agreement with you on this one; Blake was definately not an honest man, ironically less honest than the no-nonsense plan talking Travis, but must have intended to give the impression that he was in order for people to follow him. If he had said to Gan and Jenna "you need to know that I'm a dishonest person and you can't trust me" then I'm guessing they wouldn't have followed him, so its obvious that he wanted to come across as trustworthy and 'an honest man' that would be accepted as a leader. That he is clearly dishonest and a blatant liar who puts others' lives at danger without their consent is proven imo beyond doubt by your quotes from Pressure Point above.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
President Solvite
BLAKE: "It's understood the decision is mine and mine alone?"


I think this is a classic mistake by the crew.. They fail to query or reject this line. IE. If Blake feels like they can achieve the mission which he always says he can. If they contested this line and Blake acquiesed then I would agree with you but since they didn't, I cannot. Blake didnt break his word as he made clear his terms from the start.
Perhaps they should have refused to go down, until they made their position clear.

From the beginning Blake made it clear he was against the Federation. Avon saw him as a crusader as early as Spacefall. However despite all the overly dramatic lines they chose to stay and be led.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:

If Blake sees himself as Mr Joe Average, then how come we get:

"I've done it" in Pressure Point

AND

"We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right" in Star One.


Going to sound a bit like Avon, but only a tiny bit.

Blake is an idealist. He is totally dedicated. He would give his life for the liberty of total strangers, and risk the lives of his friends for that same cause.
He has fought and sacrificed for that cause his entire life. He has killed for that cause. I think Blake would agree with all these statements.

Blake has no fear or regret of his own death, but I think he regrets past deaths and fears future deaths; not only the deaths of his friends, but the deaths of some enemies as well.
He is not the first freedom fighter to be so described.

If he wins, those deaths were justified, but what if he loses? The latter comment (We have to win) is a prayer, maybe not to God, but to future generations.
Winning is the only way he can be sure that he was right to risk lives for the ideal of freedom.
Winning is the only thing that makes him a freedom fighter rather than a killer.
It's not about ego, it's about redemption.

In Pressure Point, one door stands between Blake and redemption, or so he believes.
Redemption lies behind that door. And the door is opening. He is redeemed. It was worth it. They didn't die in vain. He's done it.

And then he hasn't.

This not only explains his seemingly egotistical behavior in SO and PP, but also explains his behavior in Trial.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
I stand by my comment about the Blake masquerading as a bounty hunter on Gauda Prime. He used to be a man who left a powerful alien battleship in the hands of a man who had not only pulled a gun on him but who made no attempt to hide his plan to abandon Blake the first chance he got. He's been reduced to playing dangerous games of manipulation in order to test others. Something, somewhere has gone wrong in his head and he is a different man to the one who went down to Star One.

Deva is right that his test is too dangerous, and it doesn't make sense. Blake captures fugitives, brings them in for questioning and waits to see if they try to make a deal by revealing his identity to the supposed authorities. What could possibly go wrong?

On the subject of Blake setting himself up to take power when the Federation fell, I can see the various rebel leaders trying to get him to accept the Presidency. Blake would reject this as counterproductive to the democratic ideal he fought for. He would take exception to replacing one unelected government with another. It is not unusual for great wartime leaders to be bad peacetime ones.
 
Travisina
JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

If Blake sees himself as Mr Joe Average, then how come we get:

"I've done it" in Pressure Point

AND

"We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right" in Star One.


Going to sound a bit like Avon, but only a tiny bit.

Blake is an idealist. He is totally dedicated. He would give his life for the liberty of total strangers, and risk the lives of his friends for that same cause.
He has fought and sacrificed for that cause his entire life. He has killed for that cause. I think Blake would agree with all these statements.

Blake has no fear or regret of his own death, but I think he regrets past deaths and fears future deaths; not only the deaths of his friends, but the deaths of some enemies as well.
He is not the first freedom fighter to be so described.

If he wins, those deaths were justified, but what if he loses? The latter comment (We have to win) is a prayer, maybe not to God, but to future generations.
Winning is the only way he can be sure that he was right to risk lives for the ideal of freedom.
Winning is the only thing that makes him a freedom fighter rather than a killer.
It's not about ego, it's about redemption.

In Pressure Point, one door stands between Blake and redemption, or so he believes.
Redemption lies behind that door. And the door is opening. He is redeemed. It was worth it. They didn't die in vain. He's done it.

And then he hasn't.

This not only explains his seemingly egotistical behavior in SO and PP, but also explains his behavior in Trial.


That doesn't sound anything like Avon, and is IMO an excellent analysis of Blake's character and actions. I agree with all of it.
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

I stand by my comment about the Blake masquerading as a bounty hunter on Gauda Prime.

When did you make that comment exactly? Your only post on this thread so far is quoted below, where you suggest that Blake was paranoid and merciless in Blake and also in the original rebellion on Earth pre-TWB; but I don't read anything into it about the bounty-hunter persona being a masquerade...

Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

I always figured that the paranoid, merciless Blake we saw on Gauda Prime was the Blake that knew Bran Foster. The Blake in Season A and B is a man slowly regaining his memories and original personality.






Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

It is not unusual for great wartime leaders to be bad peacetime ones.

Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 24 February 2014 21:36:52
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
JustBrad wrote:

This not only explains his seemingly egotistical behavior in SO and PP, but also explains his behavior in Trial.


For once, I believe Avon's cyncism is spot on in "Trial".

It's a big act by Blake to get the crew back on side, after the death of Gan. However, he messes it up by teleporting onto a living planet and nearly getting eaten alive. Ironically it's Avon who ends up saving his backside.

Interesting exchange here:

AVON: "One of these days they are going to leave you. They were almost ready to do so this time."
BLAKE: "Yes, I thought they might be."
AVON: "You handle them very skillfully."
BLAKE: "Do I?"
AVON: "But one more death will do it."
BLAKE: "Then you'd better be very careful. It would be ironic if it were yours."

Note that Blake doesn't refute what Avon states in the line highlighted in bold. So is this Blake acknowledging that it was a big act on his part?
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

AVON: "But one more death will do it."
BLAKE: "Then you'd better be very careful. It would be ironic if it were yours."

Note that Blake doesn't refute what Avon states in the line highlighted in bold. So is this Blake acknowledging that it was a big act on his part?

And the way Avon cuts quite deep with his observation seems to make Blake drop his personable facade as his next comment appears to be a not-very-thinly-veiled threat...
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

Great wartime leader? Are we still talking about Blake? Angry


Yup, "great wartime leader" is not exactly how I'd describe Blake Cool

I can't say it as well as Avon:

AVON: “Yes, though it hardly seems to matter now. If it ever did.”
MELLANBY: “If it mattered? Blake and the Liberator? I've been hearing reports for the last couple of years. You were magnificent.”
AVON: “Not from where I was sitting.”

GrinGrin
 
President Solvite
You get similar critiques of many 'great' wartime leaders throughout history..

None of this is unique to Blake or adversely affects his personna in my view. With regards his lack of reply to Avon's bait, I think it was a wry attempt at humour. It always makes me smile when Blake says it.

Avon can't think of a suitable retort.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

You get similar critiques of many 'great' wartime leaders throughout history..



Um, but we actually see this rather hapless "wartime leader" in the flesh Grin

President Solvite wrote:

With regards his lack of reply to Avon's bait, I think it was a wry attempt at humour. It always makes me smile when Blake says it.

Avon can't think of a suitable retort.


Not surprising really. Blake threatens Avon's life, shortly after Avon has saved his.

I don't think I'd bother to converse further with Blake at that point either. Angry
 
Grade Four Ignorant
You misunderstand, I stand by comment about the Blake we see on Gauda Prime, that comment about him being merciless and paranoid. I wasn't trying to say anything about his bounty hunting.

And I wasn't trying to suggest that Blake was the greatest leader of all time, I was merely using the saying to help get across my point. Whilst Blake might be a good leader for the rebellion, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he would be a good civil leader.
 
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