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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

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Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

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Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
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Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
rojkerr1
one mans terrorist is the next mans freedom fighter, look at Begin in israel, we (the british) called him a terrorist, his group blew up things, cut off peoples ears, generally behaved like terrorists. he ended up as Israels prime minister! And Mugabe was hailed as the best thing since sliced bread when he came to power, true democracy etc, A Wedgewood benn praised him to the skies, but got noticeably quieter later as the worst excesses came to be revealed. The winning side writes history, if Blake had won he would have been leader, revered hero.but he lost badly and took a lot of people with him into oblivion
 
Anniew
I think Blake began as an old-fashioned dissedent . Robin Hood fighting the rich and giving to the poor. The French resistance taking out strategic targets to doubt the Nazis. The moral dilemmas were simpler because he did not possess the means to cause mass destruction. He was no more a terrorist than the students in Tiananmen Square. However once he got the Liberator, it all changed. Now he can take out planets, wreak havoc on a global and intergalactic scale. If he had destroyed control then surely that would have been terrorism? But he didn't. He elected to fight alongside the Federation. He made the right moral choice as did Avon. The Federation were obviously an oppressive regime which denied human rights and Servalan every bit as barmy as Kim Jong-un and with similar sybaritic tastes. Travis was prepared to sell out the human race for revenge and the other apologist for the Federation, Kane, murdered someone for disagreeing with him. Even Avon didn't go that far! Surely there's no question that the Federation is bad? The interesting question that the show poses is what you do if you're living in such a regime and how far you should go in opposing it.
 
guiser
trevor travis wrote:

But how is it primarily a military target?

*snip*

The main consequence of the destruction of "Star One" is the misery and possible death to millions of civilians. And that would make Blake the galaxy's No 1 criminal, hated by all and sundry. I guess it could be considered as a military target as well, because it will slightly weaken the Federation, but IMO I would say it's primarily a civilian target, hence Cally's questioining once she understands the consequence.



Star One controls the military as well as civilian functions of the Federation. Thus it is a military target. It doesn't matter what actually happened when Star One was destroyed, what matters is what the Resistance (and the Federation itself, apparently) thought would happen. Perhaps the destruction did not have the military consequences that the resistance hoped, but if military functions were not drastically affected then it is likely that civilian ones were not drastically affected either.

Also, moralistic Cally would not have gone along with destroying Star One at all if she had not been convinced that it would destroy the Federation's military power and that this was the primary target of Blake's actions. She feared the likely consequences to civilians but that is a different matter. She clearly did not see civilians as the target of the action. It was not only Blake but also his crew that thought that this was the best chance that the Resistance had to destroy the Federation. Why on earth would the crew have gone along with such an action if they did not believe this? After all, any conventional army worth its salt would have gone straight for Star One and tried to destroy it. Resistance groups had tried many times, so Blake's actions were hardly an aberration.
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 13 January 2015 14:42:05
 
guiser
Since there is still an ongoing debate on terrorism, here is the "revised academic consensus definition of terrorism" from the “Routledge Handbook of Terrorism Research” ed Alex P Schmid. This is a synthesis of the current academic consensus. I'll just quote the first paragraph and leave out all the elaboration.

"Terrorism refers on one hand to a doctrine about the presumed effectiveness of a special form or tactic of fear-generating, coercive political violence and on the other hand, to a conspiratorial practice of calculated, demonstrative, direct violent action without legal or moral restraints, targeting mainly civilians and non-combatants, performed for its propagandistic and psychological effects on various audiences and conflict parties."

Blake's group by these standards is not terroristic. Yes, Blake wants publicity but he isn't going to target civilians to get it. His targets are practical not flashy, so not primarily chosen for publicity reasons. Even Star One is the kind of installation that a conventional army would attack on pragmatic grounds. In trying to destroy Star One, Blake isn't specifically targeting civilians. He isn't trying to manipulate and psychologically affect an audience. I mean, does anyone really doubt that he would mitigate any damage to civilians if he could? He primary aim is to directly destroy the basis of Federation power.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the attack on Star One is morally justified. I happen to think that it is possible to justify the attack on Star One, but I can understand why others think differently. However, here we stray into the terrority of the morality of all warfare. That is the context in which Blake's actions should really be placed.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

mrsbookmark wrote:He doesn't attack civilian targets, which is part of the definition.


Although destroying Star One would be the ultimate civilian target, wouldn't it? And Blake's reason for pushing through with destroying Star One? "It's the only way I can be sure that I was right." So it's OK for Blake to condemn millions to possible death simply to sate his ego. Hmmmmmm.

EDIT: I agree about Blake being a failed revolutionary. Although I'd have him down as failed revolutionary and terrorist Wink


To assume that you also have to assume that Blake knew the full impact of destroying SO (whatever that was). There is no evidence that Control had those connotations and even Cally's comments do not specifically state that those 'many, many people' dying will be civilians. Travis told us that SO is pretty much a secret so why would he be able to make that assessment? The logical assumption if SO controls the Federation military dominace of space is that civilian functions would be seperate (though they may well be associated/in communication, as they are with air space today).
 
Frankymole
guiser wrote:
Blake's group by these standards is not terroristic. Yes, Blake wants publicity but he isn't going to target civilians to get it. His targets are practical not flashy, so not primarily chosen for publicity reasons. Even Star One is the kind of installation that a conventional army would attack on pragmatic grounds. In trying to destroy Star One, Blake isn't specifically targeting civilians. He isn't trying to manipulate and psychologically affect an audience. I mean, does anyone really doubt that he would mitigate any damage to civilians if he could? He primary aim is to directly destroy the basis of Federation power.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the attack on Star One is morally justified. I happen to think that it is possible to justify the attack on Star One, but I can understand why others think differently. However, here we stray into the terrority of the morality of all warfare. That is the context in which Blake's actions should really be placed.
And it's not like Blake and Bran Foster and their Freedom Party had not tried civil disobedience and peaceful revolt - several times (each time resulting in a massacre of all involved by the truly terrorist Federation).

Even after all those failures, Blake and others like Governor LeGrand still grasp at any hint of a peaceful revolution (Voice From the Past). Sadly, murderous police states aren't amenable to giving up power and will retain it at the cost of innocent lives. You also get dodgy infiltators out for themselves on the rebel side (Ven Glynd).
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
To assume that you also have to assume that Blake knew the full impact of destroying SO (whatever that was). There is no evidence that Control had those connotations and even Cally's comments do not specifically state that those 'many, many people' dying will be civilians. Travis told us that SO is pretty much a secret so why would he be able to make that assessment? The logical assumption if SO controls the Federation military dominace of space is that civilian functions would be seperate (though they may well be associated/in communication, as they are with air space today).


Those at most risk would appear to be those living on the outer worlds, where the loss of climate control could well be fatal. It certainly seems to be Durkim's main concern at the start of "Star One".

It would be unusual if the Federation had most of their military force on the outer worlds; indeed episodes such as "Horizon" and "Countdown" shows planets with little Federation man power; instead they rule by fear and threats.

It would be logical to assume most people on the outer worlds are civilians; that would fit in with the evidence presented within the episodes.
Edited by trevor travis on 15 January 2015 13:30:23
 
trevor travis
Frankymole wrote:
And it's not like Blake and Bran Foster and their Freedom Party had not tried civil disobedience and peaceful revolt - several times (each time resulting in a massacre of all involved by the truly terrorist Federation).

Even after all those failures, Blake and others like Governor LeGrand still grasp at any hint of a peaceful revolution (Voice From the Past). Sadly, murderous police states aren't amenable to giving up power and will retain it at the cost of innocent lives. You also get dodgy infiltators out for themselves on the rebel side (Ven Glynd).


But we never see what Blake was like when with the Freedom Party. Of the partnership with Foster, it may be Foster who was the relatively harmless one and Blake who was the nutcase. It's certainly Blake that caused the Federation concern - Foster is just disposed of like everyone else.

As for Blake in VFTP, he only went along with that hare-brained scheme because his mind was under control. Blake's usual modus operandi , when feeling himself, is either blowing things up or stealing them.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:
To assume that you also have to assume that Blake knew the full impact of destroying SO (whatever that was). There is no evidence that Control had those connotations and even Cally's comments do not specifically state that those 'many, many people' dying will be civilians. Travis told us that SO is pretty much a secret so why would he be able to make that assessment? The logical assumption if SO controls the Federation military dominace of space is that civilian functions would be seperate (though they may well be associated/in communication, as they are with air space today).


Those at most risk would appear to be those living on the outer worlds, where the loss of climate control could well be fatal. It certainly seems to be Durkim's main concern at the start of "Star One".

It would be unusual if the Federation had most of their military force on the outer worlds; indeed episodes such as "Horizon" and "Countdown" shows planets with little Federation man power; instead they rule by fear and threats.

It would be logical to assume most people on the outer worlds are civilians; that would fit in with the evidence presented within the episodes.


Yes, and then again no. Servalan doesnt believe what Durkim is saying and we have no knowledge of where the events he shows her are taking place, outer wrolds might mean anything. So we have no evidence that Blake appreciates what Durkim tells us are the consequences of SO failing.

But then nothing makes any sense in SO, I mean what military State builds its main C2 and its major logistics hub in a place it cant defend? In a secret location, outside of its own galaxy and at a place of known weakness? Stupid idea.
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
Yes, and then again no. Servalan doesnt believe what Durkim is saying and we have no knowledge of where the events he shows her are taking place, outer wrolds might mean anything. So we have no evidence that Blake appreciates what Durkim tells us are the consequences of SO failing.

But then nothing makes any sense in SO, I mean what military State builds its main C2 and its major logistics hub in a place it cant defend? In a secret location, outside of its own galaxy and at a place of known weakness? Stupid idea.


If Orac is half as good as he claims to be (although I have my doubts, as Orac frequently proves to be useless), then Blake will know about climate control failing on the outer worlds, because surely he uses Orac to infiltrate Federation security to get the latest gen on them (in the same way he used to, through the cipher machine).

As for “Star One” not making any sense, no it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, but then again neither does “Pressure Point”, “Terminal”, “City” or a whole host of other episodes. For me, that’s not what B7 is about – it never had a whole team of continuity advisors working on it, in the same modern television does. B7 is more about giving people food for thought, and cracking dialogue & characterisation. The fact we are still discussing the ever-controversial character of Roj Blake 35 years later suggests it succeeded big time, in regards to these.
 
Frankymole
trevor travis wrote:
As for “Star One” not making any sense, no it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, but then again neither does “Pressure Point”, “Terminal”, “City” or a whole host of other episodes. For me, that’s not what B7 is about – it never had a whole team of continuity advisors working on it, in the same modern television does. B7 is more about giving people food for thought, and cracking dialogue & characterisation. The fact we are still discussing the ever-controversial character of Roj Blake 35 years later suggests it succeeded big time, in regards to these.
Good point. And Blake doesn't really suffer from "simple-minded certainties" whatever Avon might claim. He just ignores or rides roughshod over anything that gets in his way, because he has tried all the alternatives and it got him nowhere. You can say the same about Avalon - perhaps Del Grant is closer to Avon's point of view.

trevor travis wrote:
As for Blake in VFTP, he only went along with that hare-brained scheme because his mind was under control. Blake's usual modus operandi , when feeling himself, is either blowing things up or stealing them.
The extent of the influence of the post-hypnotic suggestions is debatable. There's nothing to gauge it by on-screen. The Federation certainly don't seem able to completely control anyone, mentally, especially someone as used to breaking down the barriers as Blake was second or third time round.
Edited by Frankymole on 16 January 2015 13:48:52
 
trevor travis
Frankymole wrote:
And Blake doesn't really suffer from "simple-minded certainties" whatever Avon might claim. He just ignores or rides roughshod over anything that gets in his way, because he has tried all the alternatives and it got him nowhere.


Sadly, that does turn out to be the case. The best example is in "Pressure Point", where Gan is trying to convince Blake that things are going wrong and that it's time to back out, and Blake won't listen and presses on, and Gan doesn't survive the episode.

Blake becomes obsessed about bringing down the Federation at any cost, no matter how many people die as a consequence, and totally forgets what his original gripe actually was.
 
JustBrad
Ask any psychologist, the same character traits that take a great leader to dizzying heights (drive, confidence, faith, charisma), can also lead to that leader's fall (drive to achieve the goal at all costs, overconfidence, faith that nothing can go wrong if we stick to our principals, and charisma that causes your followers to chase you over the precipice).
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:
Yes, and then again no. Servalan doesnt believe what Durkim is saying and we have no knowledge of where the events he shows her are taking place, outer wrolds might mean anything. So we have no evidence that Blake appreciates what Durkim tells us are the consequences of SO failing.

But then nothing makes any sense in SO, I mean what military State builds its main C2 and its major logistics hub in a place it cant defend? In a secret location, outside of its own galaxy and at a place of known weakness? Stupid idea.


If Orac is half as good as he claims to be (although I have my doubts, as Orac frequently proves to be useless), then Blake will know about climate control failing on the outer worlds, because surely he uses Orac to infiltrate Federation security to get the latest gen on them (in the same way he used to, through the cipher machine).

As for “Star One” not making any sense, no it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, but then again neither does “Pressure Point”, “Terminal”, “City” or a whole host of other episodes. For me, that’s not what B7 is about – it never had a whole team of continuity advisors working on it, in the same modern television does. B7 is more about giving people food for thought, and cracking dialogue & characterisation. The fact we are still discussing the ever-controversial character of Roj Blake 35 years later suggests it succeeded big time, in regards to these.


The point is that SO is so impossibly secure that even Servalan (the person who would be required to organise its defence) doesn’t know much about it, including its location. Blake has to go after a brain print to find out where it is – implication there is nothing about SO in any of the Federation systems. So where is Orac, and by implication Blake, to get that information from?

As for making sense - its got a lot more holes than Pressure Point or Terminal, some so basic as to be unforgivable from a professional script writer in my book. As for continuity - it was written by the script editor for heaven sake. But thats a seperate discussion.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:


But we never see what Blake was like when with the Freedom Party. Of the partnership with Foster, it may be Foster who was the relatively harmless one and Blake who was the nutcase. It's certainly Blake that caused the Federation concern - Foster is just disposed of like everyone else.

As for Blake in VFTP, he only went along with that hare-brained scheme because his mind was under control. Blake's usual modus operandi , when feeling himself, is either blowing things up or stealing them.


Which suggests that Blake was well known and influencial political figure on Earth, which ties up with Alta Morags assessment of the implications of dealing with his reawakening and the methods they use to dispose of him. As for his methods, they include blowing up some strategic things, but they also include helping Avalon, getting Sarkov bacl to Lindor and the pursuit of Orac.
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:As for making sense - its got a lot more holes than Pressure Point or Terminal, some so basic as to be unforgivable from a professional script writer in my book.


Peladon, I tend to disagree. "Pressure Point" tends to have more holes than any other episode. It's odd, because one of Terry Nation's big strengths is usually tight plotting, but you really can't think too hard about "Pressure Point", because the more you do, the less it makes sense, especially its closing half.

At a time I should be going "Oh my word, Gan is dead!", I find myself saying "You can't leave Veron in Central Control!" Shock

And let's not even start to ponder on the time frame that sees Jenna & Servalan (having changed clothes) leisurely stroll into the underground room, moments after Travis has raced down there at breakneck speed. Grin

As I said, I prefer not to take the episodes to pieces, and instead concentrate on the ideas presented, and the development of the characters, but to try to pretend that "Star One" is the only B7 episode with major plot holes is little more than wilful blindness from your good self. Yes, "Star One" does have major plot holes, but so does "Pressure Point", "Terminal", "City", "Traitor", "Space Fall", etc. To criticise the writers is rather missing the point, they weren't aware we'd be discussing where Space Fall's missing four months went, etc, in 2015, they were just out to write good drama, that keep the audience entertained and intrigued. And they did.

I take my hat off to the likes of Nation, Boucher, Holmes, Lee, etc.
Edited by trevor travis on 16 January 2015 19:08:34
 
Frankymole
Could Jenna and Servalan have used a Flyer and got changed in it? I don't think Servie has a teleport bracelet on, but that's another possibity - I can imagine them doing the "minefield run" together. Servalan first as Jenna had the gun...
Edited by Frankymole on 17 January 2015 13:15:20
 
peladon
Frankymole wrote:

Could Jenna and Servalan have used a Flyer and got changed in it? I don't think Servie has a teleport bracelet on, but that's another possibity - I can imagine them doing the "minefield run" together. Servalan first as Jenna had the gun...


LOL, I think the fact that Servalan would chose to change into that particular dress even more astonishing than the fact that she changed clothes (though that is pretty daft - does the script say 'enter Servalan in a different dress' do you think?'Wink)
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:


As I said, I prefer not to take the episodes to pieces, and instead concentrate on the ideas presented, and the development of the characters, but to try to pretend that "Star One" is the only B7 episode with major plot holes is little more than wilful blindness from your good self. Yes, "Star One" does have major plot holes, but so does "Pressure Point", "Terminal", "City", "Traitor", "Space Fall", etc. To criticise the writers is rather missing the point, they weren't aware we'd be discussing where Space Fall's missing four months went, etc, in 2015, they were just out to write good drama, that keep the audience entertained and intrigued. And they did.

I take my hat off to the likes of Nation, Boucher, Holmes, Lee, etc.


I dont have many problems with the plot of PP as such, nothing that requires significant additional suspension of belief, or rather disbelief (though some of the timing on screen are a bit odd I grant you). SO certainly isnt the the only plot riddled with holes (dont get me on RoD I can go to several pages on that one). However good drama requires some observance of the realities.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
trevor travis wrote:
But we never see what Blake was like when with the Freedom Party. Of the partnership with Foster, it may be Foster who was the relatively harmless one and Blake who was the nutcase. It's certainly Blake that caused the Federation concern - Foster is just disposed of like everyone else.


I've always imagined that Foster and Blake belonged to two different branches of the Freedom Party. Foster was a political leader who attempted to orchestrate change within the Federation by means of passive resistance, labour strikes and other democratic means. Blake on the other hand seemed to be the leader of the militant faction of the Party, leading attacks on Rehabilitation Centres.

Basically, I see the Freedom Party being a bit like the ANC during Apartheid. Foster and Blake being roughly allegorical to Albert Lutuli (advocate of non-violent resistance) and Nelson Mandela (co-founded the MK, used methods of violence).
 
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