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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
15% [14 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 96
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
Spaceship Dispatcher
The war between 1939 and 1945 was one fought between nations and armies, of which the resistance was a part. There is no such war between human factions in the Blake's 7 universe.

No, the wider resistance movement does not exist in the Blake's 7 universe either. It is Blake's goal to create a unified resistance to fight the Federation, that's the whole point of the first two series. He fails, and every attempt to contact another group ends in destruction of these groups before they are able to become a single resistance organisation. There is no singular body opposed to Federation rule, merely unconnected groups of civilian individuals.

Whether Blake believes he is fighting a war for a just cause is irrelevant since most terrorist groups claim this and none are justified.
Edited by Spaceship Dispatcher on 03 October 2015 19:00:28
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
President Solvite
I don't think war has to be engaged by a party of a set size or even the opposing sides have to be equal (in numbers)

Therefore to say Blake is at war with the Federation could be construed as correct. He manages to damage the Federation and thwart many of their aims for a number of years..

No doubt the Federation would write this off at best as a Criminal Insurrection but if we look at events from a more objective direction it certainly plays out as a war albeit in a guerrilla style format.

No doubt the planets Albion would describe their liberation from Federation tyranny as a War of Independence.. Similar to how the US see their revolution of the American Colonies from British rule. Perhaps Lindor too albeit a bit more peaceably.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
JustBrad
The American Revolution analogy is a stretch, but perhaps apt. Each colony saw itself as an independent state, allied with other like minded states, fighting to free themselves from foreign (although largely benign) rule.

Many of these states were fierce rivals, but every state rallied behind George Washington, just as every planet longing for independence rallied behind Blake.

Fortunately for the Americans, George Washington never disappeared for last half the revolution only to turn up in some backwater place and be shot by General Gates.

All kidding aside, this reopens the 'fighter vs criminal' debate, as one side's heroes (e.g. the blokes who dumped the tea) were the other side's outlaws and traitors.

Keep in mind discontent wasn't isolated to the Americas, there were issues in India as well in the late 18th century.

And on a final note, I refuse to use the word terrorist. There is no comparing Blake to modern day terrorists.
 
peladon
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

The war between 1939 and 1945 was one fought between nations and armies, of which the resistance was a part. There is no such war between human factions in the Blake's 7 universe.

No, the wider resistance movement does not exist in the Blake's 7 universe either. It is Blake's goal to create a unified resistance to fight the Federation, that's the whole point of the first two series. He fails, and every attempt to contact another group ends in destruction of these groups before they are able to become a single resistance organisation. There is no singular body opposed to Federation rule, merely unconnected groups of civilian individuals.

Whether Blake believes he is fighting a war for a just cause is irrelevant since most terrorist groups claim this and none are justified.


Hmm.So you reject the testimony of Avalon (30 planets in this sector alone), the politicians and the commisar, and the actions of Cauder and previous attackers of Control. on what grounds exactly? It doesnt require a unified body with a single central command for it to be a war only that they attack the same enemy, for the sa,e reasons, for the same objectives.
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
peladon wrote:

Hmm.So you reject the testimony of Avalon (30 planets in this sector alone), the politicians and the commisar, and the actions of Cauder and previous attackers of Control. on what grounds exactly? It doesnt require a unified body with a single central command for it to be a war only that they attack the same enemy, for the sa,e reasons, for the same objectives.

There has to be some direct link between those committing the violence at the very least, but a war requires a political declaration to be such legally.

Can you provide dialogue references for the above on-screen statements; trying to guess which lines you mean will only lead to talking at cross purposes.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
peladon
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

peladon wrote:

Hmm.So you reject the testimony of Avalon (30 planets in this sector alone), the politicians and the commisar, and the actions of Cauder and previous attackers of Control. on what grounds exactly? It doesnt require a unified body with a single central command for it to be a war only that they attack the same enemy, for the sa,e reasons, for the same objectives.

There has to be some direct link between those committing the violence at the very least, but a war requires a political declaration to be such legally.

Can you provide dialogue references for the above on-screen statements; trying to guess which lines you mean will only lead to talking at cross purposes.





I disagree with your statement re a political declaration, however there is no evidence that such a declaration has not been made, The concept of declaration of war by action has precedents.

The comment by Avalon occurs in her discussion with Travis whilst she is in the interrogation machine. didnt check the exact wording but the gist is correct. She talks about the Cause and states the level of resistence, Travis responds by remarking that she will tell him all about them, to which she says 'I know enough about these machines to kow I will tell you everything.'
 
AvonGreen
I think that Blake was a near perfect character, for two reasons. He was a role model socialist and courageous leader. But, he was also very human, in that he had a few fualts and made mistakes. Perfect hero characters do little for me, because there must be an element of realism. He is an idealist, much like myself to be honest, but a little ambitious. There again, remember that he witnessed the loss of his friends and family, fueling his fire for social change. Through his central character, i always thought of B7 as being about socialism and politics, and the pursuit of liberty. In the final episode, he was no different, other than he was struggling to survive. When he and Avon reunite in the famous final scene, i think he had great trust in Avon and 'was ready to continue were he left off'. He has often reminded Avon that he had full trust in him, not doubting him, etc.
Terry Nation created a superb hero role model in Blake.

I only wish the UK had such leadership in touch with the common man (or woman).

A.G.
 
Anniew
I think a weakness is that we don't know whether there have been attempts to change the Federation politically and so have to conclude that rebellion is the only hope for mankind. There's an outer worlds Governors annual meeting with a legal charter of rules so presumably the outer planets could unite and officially oppose the Federation, even declaring war on it. They seem to do this after the Andromedon war so perhaps the Federation is too powerful to challenge when the story starts. Travis tells Servalan that Blake's group had attacked Federation detention centres and I dont believe that their disruption of food processing plants on Earth involved sit downs but to be honest I can't quite believe in the Federation set up as described which veers widely from high tech to medieval without a blink. Whether Blake's fight is justified seems to rely on whether we trust Blake's character and he's written a little ambiguously.

If 'control' is the heart of Federation power and its that that prevents any challenge to Federation power either politically ( too much to lose) or militarily ( too powerful) then I suppose it's a legitimate target.

To an extent our views probably depend on what we see as an acceptable life style. If the masses are zombified then freeing them is more obviously justified as they would be incapable of choice. If they're enjoying a comfortable but passive life then the question as to whether those who do not like the system have the right to act for them with violence is more questionable. But if minorities in our own society had not rebelled with violence then women wouldn't have the vote...homosexuality would be a crime...

But it's questionable whether violence can ever bring about truly civilised progress.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
JustBrad
Anniew wrote:

I think a weakness is that we don't know whether there have been attempts to change the Federation politically .


I think we saw a political attempt to change the Federation in The Way Back, led by Bran Foster, and we saw how it ended, in mass murder. Civil disobedience may have worked for Ghandi against Britain and for Martin Luther King Jr in the USA, but it would not work against a totalitarian regime.
 
Anniew
Brad...maybe...we don't actually know whether Bran is planning civil disobedience or something more aggressive. I'm not sure that disrupting food supplies could be effectively achieved by a sit down.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sweevo
I'll say this again: I think the Blake we see in the final episode is what he is really like (hints of his true persona start surfacing as Season 2 progresses) - for him and Bran Foster to know each other, he must have had one hell of a reputation. Maybe he was trying to break off and form his own faction while with BF?
 
BradPaula
I think you are correct, Sweevo. Bran Foster seems surprised at how changed Blake is at the secret meeting in The Way Back. I can well imagine him being quite the force of nature before he had the 'treatments'. Perhaps the Blake we saw in the episode Gauda Prime was more like he actually was pre-Way Back? Food for thought- and plenty of fan fiction.
 
peladon
However there is no reason drawn from canon to assume Blake is anything other what we see over two series and what we see is quite compatable with Blake's history as it is described. Foster seems to be talking about civil actions, and his suprise at Blake could be as much about his uncertainty regarding his past and the reality of the Federation as anything else. In terms of the justification for Blake's action - it probably depends on who is doing the looking. I suspect that a fair number of people on Earth were untouched/unaware of the true nature of the Federation prior to the war but that away from Earth its oppression would be very well understood.
 
sooper mouse
Blake does have his good sides, but in truth, he is dishonest and manipulative.
He had good intentions or what he thought were good intentions, but he has little concern for the lives of the distant masses, and the lives of his crew don't matter that much either.
The Blake/Avon contrast reminds me of the Lenin/Stalin one.
Lenin is Blake. An idealist who professes the best possible intentions but is not afraid to sacrifice lives for his ideal. The whole crew could've died in PP- and Blake considered that his goal was worth their lives.
Blake is also pretty ungrateful- especially to Avon. Let's be very clear about this- his last words to Avon in Star One are a lie and a manipulation. He didn't trust Avon for a long time. It is likely that he never did although Avon saved his life a lot of times, and the moment in Trial when he threatens Avon's life a few minutes after Avon saves him is very telling- He is ungrateful. He feels entitled to be saved by Avon and is upset that Avon calls him on his flaws. How many times does he even bother to thank Avon or anyone else?

Blake believes he can do no wrong. That is what makes him dangerous, and not a very good person, but in that regard he isn't worse than most leaders. Power always corrupts. If the revolution won, Blake would have ended up a tyrant.
Maybe this is what makes him appealing- he is a fallible human being not a 2 dimensional hero.

By contrast, Avon is Stalin. Stalin was a thug, but he never claimed to be a saint. He was also the guy who never ran away (Lenin ran to the west and abandoned his followers to the czar's mercy. Stalin stayed back and never stopped fighting). He's also the one who took the mess that was post WW1 Russia and turned it into a world power ( at a huge cost, but that's not the discussion here).

But this is not the place for communist history, and the view presented about the two in the West is vastly different from what the Russians experienced on the ground.

Avon is greedy and ruthless- but he never claims to be anything else. He is also someone who will put aside his own interests to save others.
That's something Blake doesn't do. As it turns out, Avon is a more honest person than Blake.
He's also a lot more caring. In S1 and 2, everyone goes where Blake wants, including following his personal quests ( Hostage). Blake lies, manipulates them and is also deeply unconcerned about their needs. The crew needs some rest? No, let's go to Horizon because Blake is curious.
Quite frankly, Blake is ruthless, uncaring and self centered. He does have enough of a moral core to go find a doctor for Gan and go back for Cally, but bringing Cally on board actually endangered the crew a lot, and he never even bothered to consult Avon and Jenna, who have the same seniority on the Liberator as he does, as to whether they should take this unknown person aboard.
Case can be made that he sure seems to care more about the crewmembers who back him unconditionally- Cally and Gan - than he cares about those who are more difficult- Avon and Vila. It's mean to take VIla to places he actually dreams of as paradise and then not let him down.


By contrast, Avon looks after the needs of his crew. He goes to Auron for Cally's sake, agrees to going to the Teal/Vandor event to give the crew an opportunity to rest, and most of his actions have as main motivation making his crew safer even when he doesn't like either of them that much.
When Avon has a personal goal, he asks them to help. Cally, who is, like Blake, a fanatic with a moral code that not only hurts/endangers the rest of the crew but also too high even for herself to live up to, has reservations about helping in Rumors so Avon gives her the choice to not be involved- although he had no hesitation about going to Auron in the previous episode. Cally is a pretty bad friend.

When Avon wants to go after Blake in Terminal, he goes to painstaking ends to ensure he won't endanger the others for his personal quest's sake. Might be that after Rumors he no longer feels that he can ask his crew for a personal favor again.

He didn't know the fluid cloud would hurt the Liberator, so he can't entirely be blamed for that. He was reckless there but felt he didn't have a choice- yet otherwise he goes as far as endangering himself and reducing his own chances of success just to make sure the crew won't get hurt because of his decision. Again, not something Blake would do. If Avon would've been as selfish as Blake and asked the crew to help him in Terminal, things would've gone differently.

It is a sad testimony of the shallowness of human nature that Blake, who never lived up to his own saintly image, was regarded as being superior to Avon, whose deeds show him to be a better person and more altruistic and caring than Blake ever was as far as we see in the series.

Is Avon broken in S3 and 4? Yes he is. Blake broke him with his final lie in Star One.

Saddled with a responsibility he never wanted, after saving humanity or being at least quite instrumental in it ( with the Liberator fighting, humanity wins a Pyrrhic victory. Most of the Federation vessels are destroyed. It is pretty likely that, should Avon have been a lesser person and run away like the rest of the crew wanted, the aliens would've won) Avon doesn't even ask for credit, doesn't even mention it. He's left with the burden of caring for his crewmates , and against his interests he does this to the best of his ability. He even goes and takes on the revolution mantle even if he didn't have to- he could have easily bolted with Orac, get a different identity somewhere ( he still has his Gambit winnings since he didn't have time to spend them).

Avon is not perfect. He is as fallible as anyone else. But unlike Blake he has a lot more respect for others' lives and needs, even at the cost of his own interests.
Blake doesn't.

The tyrants and murderers of history are people like Blake- who will go as far as they can believing that they are right and the sacrifices of others are worth it. Blake is willing to sacrifice the crew for the cause, but not his cousin Inga.
That makes Blake nothing more or less than an imperfect human being, the same everyone else is.

Disclaimer:
we actually know a lot less about Blake than we know about Avon. I could go as far as saying that Blake as we know him from S1 and S2 is not a complete person in as much as he has been poked and proded by the Federation so much he barely has any idea who he really is now.
So maybe just maybe Blake lacking a certain degree of concern and compassion for his crewmembers is not entirely his fault- he is at best like a survival of very severe psychic trauma. Maybe the Cause is all he can focus on and therefore it's not his fault.

But yeah, my belief is that people are a lot harder on Avon than they are on Blake. While I have a fondness for Avon, I try to be fair on him- he has a much harder time than Blake had with a lot less resources than he did, especially in S4.
Maybe Avon goes to GP to beat the everliving snot out of Blake for foisting leadership upon him.

I mean if Blake wanted to hand over the Liberator I am sure taht Avon would've been happy to make some convenient arrangement with the other crewmembers- split the contents of the treasure room, ensure they were safe etc. Blake just taking off was a poisoned chalice to Avon.

Then again when did Blake care about what Avon needed?
Edited by sooper mouse on 19 December 2016 23:10:21
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Angry Angel
Quite frankly, Blake is ruthless, uncaring and self centered.


I haven't got time to argue in detail, but what about Killer?

But yeah, my belief is that people are a lot harder on Avon than they are on Blake.


Ha! I feel like I'm constantly seeing the opposite, that Blake is a terrible person and Avon is just misunderstood.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
sooper mouse
Angry Angel wrote:

Quite frankly, Blake is ruthless, uncaring and self centered.


I haven't got time to argue in detail, but what about Killer?

But yeah, my belief is that people are a lot harder on Avon than they are on Blake.


Ha! I feel like I'm constantly seeing the opposite, that Blake is a terrible person and Avon is just misunderstood.


You mean the time when Blake got to prance about being the big humanitarian while showing little concern for Avon and Vila?
Like maybe he could warn them there was a horrid contagion on that base?
Funny how Blake shows so much concern for federation officials but not for Avon.
It's almost as if Vila and avon's purpose is to serve Blake and they are not friends or yA know people he should care about.

Avon is the better person. As anyone who studied history notices eventually, idealists tend to kill almost if not as many as the warmongers.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
Angry Angel wrote:
But yeah, my belief is that people are a lot harder on Avon than they are on Blake.


Ha! I feel like I'm constantly seeing the opposite, that Blake is a terrible person and Avon is just misunderstood.


I agree. I've seen those who will forgive Avon just about anything, yet come down on Blake like a ton of bricks for exactly the same failings. Personally I think both are equally as bad as 'captains' of Liberator/Scorpio.

In fact, Avon comes across as a major hypocrite, since he's highly critical (with some justification) of Blake, but then repeats most of the same mistakes himself!

Back onto Blake (since the thread is about him), and I think his main problem is completely losing track of his original aim, as stated in "Space Fall". Blake has a very understandable beef against the Administration. Somehow he ends up fighting against the wrong wing of the Federation! His beef is with those on Earth, not elsewhere.
Edited by trevor travis on 20 December 2016 12:18:01
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Angry Angel wrote:
But yeah, my belief is that people are a lot harder on Avon than they are on Blake.


Ha! I feel like I'm constantly seeing the opposite, that Blake is a terrible person and Avon is just misunderstood.


I agree. I've seen those who will forgive Avon just about anything, yet come down on Blake like a ton of bricks for exactly the same failings. Personally I think both are equally as bad as 'captains' of Liberator/Scorpio.

In fact, Avon comes across as a major hypocrite, since he's highly critical (with some justification) of Blake, but then repeats most of the same mistakes himself!

Back onto Blake (since the thread is about him), and I think his main problem is completely losing track of his original aim, as stated in "Space Fall". Blake has a very understandable beef against the Administration. Somehow he ends up fighting against the wrong wing of the Federation! His beef is with those on Earth, not elsewhere.


I disagree. Blake's beef is with all the Federation, however his motives- the true ones- are a lot more "I want revenge for what they did to me" than "I want everyone to be free".

The second is just the pretext for Blake's revenge.

Avon's motives are different and he never asked not expected anyone of his crew to die for his Cause. Therein lies the difference. Avon does make mistakes, but he doesn't make the same mistakes as Blake.

The only times he goes anywhere for personal interest are in Rumors- when he asks for the others' assistance, and Terminal- when he goes to great lengths to ensure that his decision doesn't endanger the others.
Also- a mistake made because information was not available is not the same thing with a mistake made willingly from lack of regard for others' well being- like Blake does in Hostage , Horizon, Pressure Point etc.

Avon prioritizes the well being of his crew for most time except for Orbit- and he's definitely unstable at that point.
Blake rarely prioritizes the well being of his crew unless it's one of the unconditional followers- Cally or Gan, and is downright insensitive or mean to significantly more valuable members just because they occasionally disagree with him- Avon and to some extent Vila.

Avon does ask for a lot but he puts himself in the line as fire just as well, and his concern for the crew's well being is a priority.
Blake asks for a lot but he gives very little in return especially to Avon.

Also, Blake has no problem with killing millions to get his revenge on the federation, something Avon would never do.

The difference is again, one of presentation- Avon is a ruthless utilitarian, but he never claims to be otherwise. Blake claims his saintly halo but behind it he is petty, vengeful, ungenerous, reckless, mean, fanatic and ungrateful.
They're both imperfect leaders, but Avon is honest about it- he didn't choose leadership. Blake just unloaded it on him then ran away when things got hard. Twice.

That being said, I am being unfair. It is inherently unfair to Blake to hold him to Avon standards.

PS: Blake's scar is the most resourceful use of a plaster I've ever seen lol
Edited by sooper mouse on 20 December 2016 15:58:06
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
President Solvite
If Blake's motives are for revenge then he wouldn't be bothered to help out worlds like Horizon, Lindor etc. Or for that matter Federation personnel in Killer. His actions are certainly not one of a cold or enraged vengeful killer.

Whilst Avon is the ultimate cynic and putting to one side his 'histrionics' in Star One there is truth I think to Blake's purpose. Also in the original intent of Blake's desire to free people of Federation tyranny.

'So that an honest man can think and speak'

Avon's view of Blake is very jaundiced, because he can't envisage anyone doing anything other than for personal gain. He always sees an 'angle' to everything because that is how he operates. Ultimately he see's the Federation as a threat to his safety and follows a similar course in opposing the Federation ultimately becoming the thing that he despises when we first meet him on the London.

Brings a nice symmetry to it in my view and is why we watch and talk about it all these years later.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
sooper mouse
President Solvite wrote:

If Blake's motives are for revenge then he wouldn't be bothered to help out worlds like Horizon, Lindor etc. Or for that matter Federation personnel in Killer. His actions are certainly not one of a cold or enraged vengeful killer.

Whilst Avon is the ultimate cynic and putting to one side his 'histrionics' in Star One there is truth I think to Blake's purpose. Also in the original intent of Blake's desire to free people of Federation tyranny.

'So that an honest man can think and speak'

Avon's view of Blake is very jaundiced, because he can't envisage anyone doing anything other than for personal gain. He always sees an 'angle' to everything because that is how he operates. Ultimately he see's the Federation as a threat to his safety and follows a similar course in opposing the Federation ultimately becoming the thing that he despises when we first meet him on the London.

Brings a nice symmetry to it in my view and is why we watch and talk about it all these years later.


But there's quite a bit of self interest in Horizon, isn't it? Not to mention the "let's force the tired crew to go because Blake is curious", would Blake have been that helpful if his own life wasn't at risk or if he didn't need a base?

Not to mention he doesn't help on Lindor out of generosity- a restored Sarkoff would be a great help to his cause.


yet Avon keeps doing things against his personal interest, like constantly saving Blake's butt or taking the alien invader fleet head on when the others would've gladly ran.

When did Blake do anything that went against his interests and the cause just so he can help someone, anyone? Blake sacrifices people to his cause. Avon sacrifices his cause( self preservation) to help people.
That is the difference.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
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