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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
18% [17 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
10% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 94
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
rojkerr1
Avon can see that Blake is as damaged a person as he is, the difference is that he is actively fighting to regain his sense of purpose. Avon sees Blake as a tattered reflection of himself, cut to pieces by torture and federation 'therapy' He feels sorry for Blake 'enough to give anybody nightmares...' He supprts him at his lowest moment in Pressure Point, instinctlvely he will always try to help Blake, witness his saving his life when he freezes in the Web, and helping him at the risk of his own life in Redemption. Avon is a bit frightened of his own feelings when it comes to Blake, as Blake brings out the best reluctant best in him. Avon comes into his own after Star One, out of blakes shadow he feels he can be himself. When things go progressively wrong in series 4, Blake is his last chance, he turns to him in extremis because in his own mind he has come to the end of his tether. he needs Blakes 'simple minded certainties' if only so he can blame someone else when things go wrong. Avon has come to respect tarrant so when he condemns Blake, Avon is sufficiently shocked and hurt to pull the trigger. He is shooting at the end to keep Blake away from him, so he doesn't have to acknowledge what he's done. His last look is one of grief fondness and affection, as if he knew it would always come to this
 
peladon
rojkerr1 wrote:

Avon can see that Blake is as damaged a person as he is, the difference is that he is actively fighting to regain his sense of purpose. Avon sees Blake as a tattered reflection of himself, cut to pieces by torture and federation 'therapy' He feels sorry for Blake 'enough to give anybody nightmares...' He supprts him at his lowest moment in Pressure Point, instinctlvely he will always try to help Blake, witness his saving his life when he freezes in the Web, and helping him at the risk of his own life in Redemption. Avon is a bit frightened of his own feelings when it comes to Blake, as Blake brings out the best reluctant best in him. Avon comes into his own after Star One, out of blakes shadow he feels he can be himself. When things go progressively wrong in series 4, Blake is his last chance, he turns to him in extremis because in his own mind he has come to the end of his tether. he needs Blakes 'simple minded certainties' if only so he can blame someone else when things go wrong. Avon has come to respect tarrant so when he condemns Blake, Avon is sufficiently shocked and hurt to pull the trigger. He is shooting at the end to keep Blake away from him, so he doesn't have to acknowledge what he's done. His last look is one of grief fondness and affection, as if he knew it would always come to this


I'd say its more straightforward than that, Blake is someone who relates to people on a conceptual basis, and so can identify with large numbers of people he doesnt know but possibly not those closest to him, whilst Avon is the opposite. Avon relates to those he knows but not to those faceless masses Blake feels for.
The situation after Star One is significantly different and Avon is under less pressure. In S4 there is no real sign that Avon is in extremis, certainly not in 'Blake' prior to the last couple of minutes.
 
magnificat
.
Edited by magnificat on 07 May 2014 10:35:31
 
President Solvite
Avon is ever the opportunist.. Pfft

Kicking people when they're down and not likely to suffer a reply, still he gets his turn to get people killed and act 'stupidly' soon enough.

I don't think Avon really understood Blake until he was gone, he tried and fails to be a leader choosing to use force, and threats and many other behaviors taken to a greater extreme than Blake ever employed and was accused of. I don't think Avon ever really relates well to people known or otherwise, and his reluctance to trust is a symptom of his awareness of his weakness?.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
peladon
President Solvite wrote:

Avon is ever the opportunist.. Pfft

Kicking people when they're down and not likely to suffer a reply, still he gets his turn to get people killed and act 'stupidly' soon enough.

I don't think Avon really understood Blake until he was gone, he tried and fails to be a leader choosing to use force, and threats and many other behaviors taken to a greater extreme than Blake ever employed and was accused of. I don't think Avon ever really relates well to people known or otherwise, and his reluctance to trust is a symptom of his awareness of his weakness?.


I'd say that he does, and that he actually understands them quite well - which doesnt equate to liking them of course. In S3 he manages quite well and only resorts the threats on the final occassion. He manages ti trust pretty well too through most of S1/3, except where he has good reason not to.

In S4 he's so far OfC that you can't infer anything from his previous behaviour or his knowledge of Blake.
 
Coser
In my opinion, there is most certainly a real difference in the Blake from "The Beginning" and that of "Blake", but I don't believe either - or any Blake seen onscreen - was the 'true' Blake.

The Beginning/Spacefall show a Blake who has been 'altered' by the federation. Turned into their puppet after his previous trial. As events unfold, parts of the real Blake start appearing. If the conditioning was still holding strong, why did he not run to the nearest guard once they were obviously going outside? The conditioning would surely include something about not breaking the law that would have been in effect with or without the suppressants in the food supplies. If Blake had not gone outside, the Federation would have once again had the opportunity to parade him as a model citizen, but as soon as he went outside, events are destined to send him off-planet.

So as the eppisodes play out, we see more and more of the 'real' blake and less of the 'Federation' Blake.

Was Blake paranoid by the events of "Blake"? Undoubtedly. But don't forget the saying "Just because you are Paranoid, it doesn't mean that they are NOT out to get you!"

Blake was Paranoid, and rightly so. Look at what had happened to him. He finds out that most, if not all, of his life pre "The Beginning" was a lie. He had been a political dissident, had treatments, was tried, had more treatments, his family moved away to "The outer planets". All of which was either a fiction or had a fiction implanted to cover up.

From the point of his realisation of this, he has to be questioning every decision he makes to find out if it is actually his, or a remnant of the conditioning. This is possibly why he takes such an anti-Federation stance. If his actions are so obviously against the federation, they must be his desires, not something being pushed on him by some conditioning remnant, right?

(Wrong. The conditioning could have included some behavioural loop in case he makes contact with other dissident groups in the future - a distinct possibility if we believe the Federation's assesment of his charisma and leadership skills from his first trial. OK this is a supposition and not actually supported by anything in those episodes, but Blake would be correct to fear that anything except the most damaging actions against the Federation could be a result of the conditioning.)

Over the events of the first 2 seasons, he is referred to as the number one wanted man in the federation. So surely there must be a lot of people actively searching him out with a view to killing him.

So he can't trust his notions of the past or his own decision making processes, and there are a large number of people who are actually out to get him.

Paranoia is the only logical path.

However, Blake has other issues as well. By the time of the events on Gauda Prime, he muust have bought lock, stock, and barrel, into his own cult of celebrity. He must truly believe that he is the most wanted man in the federation even though by that time that mantle must have passed to Avon. If there were not other factors such as this in the mix, Blake would never have trusted anyone, especially Arlen, and would not have ended up in the situation which led to his death on Gauda Prime.

Avon also must have realised that Blake was by this time a Paranoid Delusional, and therefore I believe thought that he (Avon) could not believe anything that Blake said. The more Blake tried to convince Avon that he (Blake) was not working for the Federation, the more Avon believed that Blake was saying whatever he thought Avon wanted to hear to save his own skin. So the more Blake said, the more reason Avon thought he had to kill Blake.
"Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morobuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes…then all of this…all of this…was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Commander sinclair, Babylon 5.
 
rojkerr1
Blakes conditioning starts to unravel in The way Back when Foster tells him the truth about his family, in Space fall he has obviously accepted this totally as he is able to resist the Liberators family-image based defence system, Avon and Jenna would have been dead without him. Conditioning is further eroded by ven Glynds machinations in Voice from the past. Hardly surprising that his persona is starting to unravel at this point, Avons speech about leading the rabble to victory hits him really hard, and his response to callys - 'are we fanatics?' is that of a man frantically trying to hang onto something anything that will justify himself and his actions.
 
peladon
Coser wrote:

In my opinion, there is most certainly a real difference in the Blake from "The Beginning" and that of "Blake", but I don't believe either - or any Blake seen onscreen - was the 'true' Blake.

The Beginning/Spacefall show a Blake who has been 'altered' by the federation. Turned into their puppet after his previous trial. As events unfold, parts of the real Blake start appearing. If the conditioning was still holding strong, why did he not run to the nearest guard once they were obviously going outside? The conditioning would surely include something about not breaking the law that would have been in effect with or without the suppressants in the food supplies. If Blake had not gone outside, the Federation would have once again had the opportunity to parade him as a model citizen, but as soon as he went outside, events are destined to send him off-planet.

So as the eppisodes play out, we see more and more of the 'real' blake and less of the 'Federation' Blake....

...Avon also must have realised that Blake was by this time a Paranoid Delusional, and therefore I believe thought that he (Avon) could not believe anything that Blake said. The more Blake tried to convince Avon that he (Blake) was not working for the Federation, the more Avon believed that Blake was saying whatever he thought Avon wanted to hear to save his own skin. So the more Blake said, the more reason Avon thought he had to kill Blake.


Well its a theory - but there is no evidence to support it. We see Blake emerging pretty rapidly from his 'conditioning' in TWB. From what is on screen it was dependent upon memory blocks and supressants, feasible enough, - hence it starts to fail as the drugs clear out of his system. The most logical conclusion from what we are shown is that once disrupted it couldnt be re-instated, after all no one who knew he went outside survived other than Tarrant, so no one would know if he was simply re baselined and put back as the model citizen. Therefore the reason they dont must be because they cant. Or am I forgetting/missing something? Also Blake is pretty consistent over S1, if there had been any 'real' Blake emerging its then you would expect to see it.

Was Blake paranoid by 'Blake' well there isnt really any sign that he is, only that he has learned not to trust, itself a reasonable enough development given his past and his current circumstances.

His anti Federation stand, and the extent of it, is well explained by what we see of them on screen without any recourse to any doubts about his conditioning. In fact until VoP raises it (very badly) there is no evidence to suggest he hasnt completely recovered his personality along with his memory.

As far as I recall it is only Bayban in S3 that refers to Blake as being top of the wanted list, his ranking or otherwise is not mentioned other than that is it? We know that he is being sought and why, but after Project Avalon Blake must know that its the ship they really want. That assumption is carried though in S3 of course.

Blake has been out of the spotlight for a couple of years at the very least by GP, even Orac could only follow him by inference, also there has been a major and very destructive war, so there is no reason to assume any cult of celebrity around him existed any longer, or that he beleived it. If he did then he would never have felt secure in acting the bounty hunter - he could only do that if he assumed that in the minds of the wider worlds he was a dead or forgotten man.

Avon goes into the GP situation with his eyes open and fully in control of himself, his killing Blake in that way make no logical or psychological sense.
 
Vanessa Doffenshmirtz
peladon wrote:


As far as I recall it is only Bayban in S3 that refers to Blake as being top of the wanted list, his ranking or otherwise is not mentioned other than that is it? We know that he is being sought and why, but after Project Avalon Blake must know that its the ship they really want. That assumption is carried though in S3 of course.



It's not so much the Liberator but the more advanced technology that the Federaton is after..IMHO.
I used to be such a sweet sweet thing
Till they got a hold of me.
 
magnificat
.
Edited by magnificat on 07 May 2014 10:27:42
 
Angry Angel
magnificat wrote:

You'd think Blake would have been more protective of the Liberator in his absence given its centrality to the rebel cause - maybe stipulating Cally as his logical captain preference?


He was only in charge by agreement of the others, I think he felt that if he wasn't there it was up to those who were left to decide who was in charge, if anybody.
 
http://lucyravenscar.blogspot.com/
peladon
Vanessa Doffenshmirtz wrote:

peladon wrote:


As far as I recall it is only Bayban in S3 that refers to Blake as being top of the wanted list, his ranking or otherwise is not mentioned other than that is it? We know that he is being sought and why, but after Project Avalon Blake must know that its the ship they really want. That assumption is carried though in S3 of course.



It's not so much the Liberator but the more advanced technology that the Federaton is after..IMHO.


Agreed, the ship is merely the starting point. I suspect they would have even let Blake go if they could have got at the technology - which is what Servalan expected at Terminal of course.
 
peladon
magnificat wrote:

You'd think Blake would have been more protective of the Liberator in his absence given its centrality to the rebel cause - maybe stipulating Cally as his logical captain preference?


It wasnt for him to decide really. However I'd think that by that point he would have decided that the others stood a better chance of survival with Avon in charge, and possibly Jenna and Avon in partnership. Cally just doesnt have the right mix of skills and experience.
 
Grade Four Ignorant
It would have been pretty reckless of Blake to have handed over command of Liberator to Avon directly. He'd have to take the gamble that Vila, Jenna and Cally would come with him. And if they didn't, despite his declared trust in Avon, I don't think he could have been sure that Avon wouldn't have abandoned them or handed them over to the Federation in order to have the ship to himself.
Edited by Grade Four Ignorant on 02 May 2014 11:56:13
 
peladon
Grade Four Ignorant wrote:

It would have been pretty reckless of Blake to have handed over command of Liberator to Avon directly. He'd have to take the gamble that Vila, Jenna and Cally would come with him. And if they didn't, despite his declared trust in Avon, I don't think he could have been sure that Avon wouldn't have abandoned them or handed them over to the Federation in order to have the ship to himself.


By that point Avon could have abandoned them/sold them out/stolen the ship many times over and he hadnt. He had also put himself at significant risk to save them on occassions.

In effect Blake did hand command over to Avon, but then he had some faith in Avon from the start, certainly from the first time Avon saved his life.
 
Rodney
Paul Darrow aske us to decide whether Blake's crew - in Series 1 and 2 - was a group of freedom-fighters or terrorists. What do people think of this provocative question?!
Vila: Where are all the good guys?
Blake: You could be looking at them.
Avon: What a depressing thought!
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Rodney wrote:

Paul Darrow aske us to decide whether Blake's crew - in Series 1 and 2 - was a group of freedom-fighters or terrorists. What do people think of this provocative question?!

imo Blake and Cally were terrorists, because their MO was destruction, so I suppose everyone else is too by association; but I don't apply the tag to any of the other crew members as individuals.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Rodney
Blake is, arguably, less honest than Avon, isn't he?
Vila: Where are all the good guys?
Blake: You could be looking at them.
Avon: What a depressing thought!
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Rodney wrote:

Blake is, arguably, less honest than Avon, isn't he?

Well, if I were to put myself on the Liberator crew then I would be drawn to pre-Terminal Avon much more than Blake; he might have his schemes and deceptions, but for most of the first three series imo he's pretty reliable. Blake is a lunatic with others' lives in his hands, there to be crushed. I'm not a fan of Blake as a person, although GT's performance is one of the things I like best about the show.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Rodney
I agree. He's not a likeable character and incredibly egotistical. The moment when he rushes into the empty control room is priceless:
“We’ve done it! We’ve done it! I’ve done it!”
Vila: Where are all the good guys?
Blake: You could be looking at them.
Avon: What a depressing thought!
 
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