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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Anniew wrote:

I have difficulty I must confess in seeing Avon as a victim of evil, manipulative Blake!


Yes, it doesn't quite stack up for me either. Avon is the one who can actually read Blake. He proves that in "Duel"; he's the one who knows full well that Blake isn't going to kill Travis. Blake isn't the brightest and not capable of manipulating Avon.

We only see Avon manipulated by two people. Anna Grant is one of them, and he kills her. Servalan is the other (in Terminal) and he subsequently hates her for it.



If we postulate that Avon cares for Blake, then what Blake does to Avon is pure and simple emotional abuse. Blake is a narcissist.
You can know someone is manipulating you and still go along with it and be a victim of their actions if there are external circumstances that bind you to them. Like the fact you care for them, or you fear for your safety if you left etc.

In fact Avon doesn't even need to care for Blake. By escaping the London and being involved in Blake's rebellion, Avon is on a wanted list, and the safest place for him to be is the Liberator, he can only leave with the Liberator in order to have a true chance of ever being safe again.

Which means that even if he does know that Blake is manipulating him, and he knew that from day one, he still isn't at liberty to actually do anything about it short of letting Blake die. For all intents and purposes Avon is right to want to be free of Blake- because he is a prisoner of Blake's idiocy.
And Blake himself knows it.
Edited by sooper mouse on 31 December 2016 11:04:08
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
TT wrote
We only see Avon manipulated by two people. Anna Grant is one of them, and he kills her. Servalan is the other (in Terminal) and he subsequently hates her for it.
. Of course what you may have provided here is the reason why Avon kills Blake..he recognises Blake is manipulating him rather than telling him the truth (YES!), hates him for it and shoots him.

And Sooper Mouse I go along in part with what you say, but it ignores the fact that Avon is a recidividist criminal who's made a living defrauding others ( evidence? Scam with Tynus...Anna bank fraud...he knows the Dodgey Keiller ) you can't ignore the responsibility he has through his own actions for being forced to throw his lot in with Blake or the fact that he's a self proclaimed selfish bastard ( I think of self interest as my greatest strength.). I love Avon but he's a charming crook in lots of ways.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

TT wrote
We only see Avon manipulated by two people. Anna Grant is one of them, and he kills her. Servalan is the other (in Terminal) and he subsequently hates her for it.
. Of course what you may have provided here is the reason why Avon kills Blake..he recognises Blake is manipulating him rather than telling him the truth (YES!), hates him for it and shoots him.

And Sooper Mouse I go along in part with what you say, but it ignores the fact that Avon is a recidividist criminal who's made a living defrauding others ( evidence? Scam with Tynus...Anna bank fraud...he knows the Dodgey Keiller ) you can't ignore the responsibility he has through his own actions for being forced to throw his lot in with Blake or the fact that he's a self proclaimed selfish bastard ( I think of self interest as my greatest strength.). I love Avon but he's a charming crook in lots of ways.


Embezzler, not crook. There's a difference, and we don't have enough evidence that he made a living out of it.
The embezzler takes money from banks. The crook takes money from people.

Regardless of Avon's past crimes, none of these things mean that it's Ok for Blake to endanger his life, manipulate and be ungrateful to him. That is the point. I can accept to a point that Blake also endangers himself, but it's the ingratitude that bugs me- it's like Blake feels the need to constantly punish Avon for not being an obedient follower.

Blake is a zealot and without Travis' insanity he'd be a genocidal one at it- the destruction of Star One would've killed tens of millions of people for the purpose of Blake's revenge.
i agree with Paul D's view that who the heroes and villains are is unclear. There are people for whom ISIS are heroes.
Travis is insane, but Blake in't, so what if the true villain is Blake? How many people died because Blake is too big of a coward to accept the moral responsibility of killing Travis?
Edited by sooper mouse on 01 January 2017 11:15:08
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Embezzler, not crook. There's a difference, and we don't have enough evidence that he made a living out of it.
The embezzler takes money from banks. The crook takes money from people.


How about "Gold"? In this episode, we see Avon and the rest of the crew killing the ZVP Security Guards, in enable to carry out a crime. These are not Federation men; just normal security guards.

Although the descent into common criminality was inevitable once Cally died. The moral compass of the crew, the one person who could get through to Avon, has gone.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Embezzler, not crook. There's a difference, and we don't have enough evidence that he made a living out of it.
The embezzler takes money from banks. The crook takes money from people.


How about "Gold"? In this episode, we see Avon and the rest of the crew killing the ZVP Security Guards, in enable to carry out a crime. These are not Federation men; just normal security guards.

Although the descent into common criminality was inevitable once Cally died. The moral compass of the crew, the one person who could get through to Avon, has gone.


Avon was pretty gone by Gold, and as stated before, Avon is not a revolutionary, and not trying to be the saviour of the rabble like Blake. But you should consider the fact that we need to go as far as Gold to get that.

Moral compass... not really. She puts her fanaticism and stupid Auronar prejudices ahead of the well being of the crew and her very existence endangers them repeatedly. that's not moral compass, that is bigotry.

If she had any sort of moral compass she'd have stopped Blake from attacking Star One and Control, but no, she eggs him on and enables his slippage into zealotry. Blake would have probably been better off if she wasn't there to enable his fanaticism- the more clear headed members of the crew- both Jenna and Avon would've probably managed to get through to him eventually.

getting through to Avon? only when it served her interests, but he rarely if ever gets anything in return. It's OK for them to go to Auron to save her people or at least try, but Cally sure isn't that helpful when Avon needs help with his issue in Rumors and when he does show concern for her well being in the beginning of Sarcophagus... and what does Cally do? well she pushes him away. Not a friendly gesture from someone who was there to show compassion...
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Dtar
Moral compass... not really. She puts her fanaticism and stupid Auronar prejudices ahead of the well being of the crew and her very existence endangers them repeatedly. that's not moral compass, that is bigotry.
[/quote]

Not to quibble too much or divert too much discussion to Cally, but does she actually show intolerance of the views or opinions of others? As I understand it, that would actually be bigotry. I didn't think I was very clear on the definition until I recently looked it up myself....
Unsure
 
sooper mouse
Dtar wrote:

Moral compass... not really. She puts her fanaticism and stupid Auronar prejudices ahead of the well being of the crew and her very existence endangers them repeatedly. that's not moral compass, that is bigotry.


Not to quibble too much or divert too much discussion to Cally, but does she actually show intolerance of the views or opinions of others? As I understand it, that would actually be bigotry. I didn't think I was very clear on the definition until I recently looked it up myself....
Unsure

she shows disrespect and lack of care for the others' well being because of her beliefs whom she puts ahead of everyone and everything else.
putting one's "beliefs" above common sense and the well being of other people is a form of intolerance. The dangerous one.

"hey, Gan is dangerous and in restraints because he attacked 2 crewmembers. I know, I'll set him free because the stupid beliefs of Auron are more important than the well being of the people around me"
Edited by sooper mouse on 02 January 2017 07:46:25
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
(there is of course the hypothesis that Blake DOES like Avon and Avon does like Blake and the two of them just go around pulling each other's pigtails, but that's too simple, and in the devil's advocate business we don't do simple. Plus it seems they don't quite get the difference between pulling on pigtails and going for the throat.)
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
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