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Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Blake
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
I'd say his worst is Star One.
That final manipulation of Avon ( we all know he didn't trust him from the very beginning) was pretty cruel and unnecessary. Arguably, that's what broke Avon.


I do interpret that look in Star One as "Don't try to manipulate me, Blake... especially not now!!" Grin

But Avon's a big boy and able to look after himself. I don't think it 'breaks' him. If Avon does break (and I'm not sure he ever does, he just becomes stressed out), then it's the events of Gold, Orbit, Warlord and Blake which do it.

IMO I don't see the Avon of e.g. Death-Watch as at all broken.

Umm, I don't think so. When Avon snarls(internally or externally), he doesn't look like he just took 20 bullets. He makes the jutted jaw and narrow eyes look.

him looking after himself is not the problem. Him saddled with other people without much of a say in it (because Blake chose the coward's way out ) is the problem.
Blake is an idiot in Star One. None of his behaviour is pardonable, but then again it hadn't been since redemption.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
i'm sure the 100 million label price of Orac or the fact they needed anti radiation pills had NOTHING to do with it. Not like he mentions it umpteen times.


Cheers Sooper Mouse - that's another one:

Orac: racing to Aristo for medical supplies not for himself, but for Vila, Gan, Avon and Jenna.


without whom he couldn't run the ship.


He could enlist Avalon and some of her followers. But instead he chooses to help save his current crew.

Blake often shows loyalty to his crew. Remember his threat to Del Grant in Countdown if anything happens to Avon (which Grant doesn't take that seriously, but the point is that Blake makes the threat in the first place).

Blake puts his crew in the most dreadful danger, takes them for granted, often riders roughshod over their opinions, BUT is loyal to them at the same time.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
i'm sure the 100 million label price of Orac or the fact they needed anti radiation pills had NOTHING to do with it. Not like he mentions it umpteen times.


Cheers Sooper Mouse - that's another one:

Orac: racing to Aristo for medical supplies not for himself, but for Vila, Gan, Avon and Jenna.


without whom he couldn't run the ship.


He could enlist Avalon and some of her followers. But instead he chooses to help save his current crew.

Blake often shows loyalty to his crew. Remember his threat to Del Grant in Countdown if anything happens to Avon (which Grant doesn't take that seriously, but the point is that Blake makes the threat in the first place).

Blake puts his crew in the most dreadful danger, takes them for granted, often riders roughshod over their opinions, BUT is loyal to them at the same time.


whether he can find a set of skills so matched with his needs is another discussion. Plus, that would take time and would leave him stranded in space at the worst possible place to be. Exceptional pilots, programmers and thieves don't grow on trees, and Avalon isn't even capable to have proper guards posted at her meeting.

And Blake IS loyal- namely to those that follow him unconditionally(Gan and Cally). He is ungrateful and mean to both Avon and Vila, incidentally the two crewmembers who most often voice their concerns against his idiotic plans.

Which means he is ONLY loyal out of interest- keeping his "loyal" followers sweet while bearing down on the others- especially on the guy who keeps risking his life to save his dumb hide. Constantly. He rarely listens to Jenna but is most likely leading her on because he needs a pilot.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
The trouble is that if we assume Blake is just a despicable manipulating fanatic, then the crews' loyalty to him is woefully misplaced and they must all be stupid not to airlock him or abandon him. He certainly has traits that I don't like but Avon instinctively saves his life more than once, the astute Jenna is fond of him, Gan and Vila obviously like him and Cally ( a telepath ) cries out to him with her dying breath. It makes the whole show idiotic if there is no truth in Blake.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

The trouble is that if we assume Blake is just a despicable manipulating fanatic, then the crews' loyalty to him is woefully misplaced and they must all be stupid not to airlock him or abandon him. He certainly has traits that I don't like but Avon instinctively saves his life more than once, the astute Jenna is fond of him, Gan and Vila obviously like him and Cally ( a telepath ) cries out to him with her dying breath. It makes the whole show idiotic if there is no truth in Blake.


Annie, that's how I see it too. Blake is a deeply flawed character, but he has his good points too. He believes in his 'cause' and others do as well.
 
Anniew
TT I think as well some of the moral and political complexity of the show is lost if we don't believe that Blake's cause is at least partly justified.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

The trouble is that if we assume Blake is just a despicable manipulating fanatic, then the crews' loyalty to him is woefully misplaced and they must all be stupid not to airlock him or abandon him. He certainly has traits that I don't like but Avon instinctively saves his life more than once, the astute Jenna is fond of him, Gan and Vila obviously like him and Cally ( a telepath ) cries out to him with her dying breath. It makes the whole show idiotic if there is no truth in Blake.


Depends on how you want to look at it.
One can argue that the show's message can be construed that appearances deceive and actions are stronger than words- the noble hero is selfish, dangerous and manipulative and the cold and self professed selfish antihero is the most altruistic character of them all.

Avon constantly saves his life and minutes after, Blake threatens him. That's pretty awful behaviour, constantly. Inexcusably so. It's beyond mean, it is actually evil- "you disagree with me therefore I don't have to ever thank you for constantly saving my life". That is a high level of sociopath.

He is kinda obviously leading Jenna on, and she shows her loss of faith in him on several occasions. After all, they leave together in a shuttle, but become separated. How'd that happen? Why did Jenna not insist to be brought back? maybe she's happy to be free of him.

Gan? He gets Gan killed.

Cally is a zealot like Blake. He brought her on the ship without asking anyone else- which basic courtesy would have demanded of him, her presence there is constantly endangering the other crew members and she doesn't really have any truly useful skills- her telepathy is pretty useless and more trouble than it's worth. She is also his worst enabler, and maybe a reason why Blake can't be talked out of his later fanaticism.

As for Vila?
Well... all of them being associated with Blake's rebellion means they are all very wanted men. The Liberator is the safest choice for them- which is why Vila stays on later as well.

Is Blake's cause righteous? depends. Theoretically it is. But the problem is that Blake himself is not a righteous man- he mainly wants revenge for what was done to him. He cares little for his crew- he lies to them endangers their lives and should the whole shebang at Star One not have happened they would have eventually left him, or he'd have killed them all, one by one.
Maybe the show is about how dangerous fanatics hurt everyone around them. Blake sure did.
Edited by sooper mouse on 30 December 2016 23:04:53
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

TT I think as well some of the moral and political complexity of the show is lost if we don't believe that Blake's cause is at least partly justified.


That's why I'm glad the series starts with TWB rather than Space Fall, because TWB shows us what Blake is fighting against.

There is something to fight against. BUT whether Blake goes the right way about it is another argument entirely Wink
 
Anniew
Absolutely!! That's why Avon's views are so important.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Anniew wrote:

TT I think as well some of the moral and political complexity of the show is lost if we don't believe that Blake's cause is at least partly justified.


That's why I'm glad the series starts with TWB rather than Space Fall, because TWB shows us what Blake is fighting against.

There is something to fight against. BUT whether Blake goes the right way about it is another argument entirely Wink


yes, and at the end of it the Federation still stands, and Blake has gotten everyone (+/- Avon) killed for nothing.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Avon constantly saves his life and minutes after, Blake threatens him. That's pretty awful behaviour, constantly. Inexcusably so. It's beyond mean, it is actually evil- "you disagree with me therefore I don't have to ever thank you for constantly saving my life". That is a high level of sociopath.


I would say both Avon AND Blake save each other's lives on a number of occasions. And I'm sure Blake does thank Avon. Quite a few times. Off the top of my head, he does in Redemption and he does in Trial.

Blake is definitely not a sociopath. He's just an ordinary bloke, held up to be a working class hero, who makes some horrible mistakes trying to live up to that hype! There's not much hidden to Blake. When he's trying to manipulate people, he's hardly subtle about it. Avon can read him like a book; he proves that in "Duel". Blake is simply a human being with flaws.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Avon constantly saves his life and minutes after, Blake threatens him. That's pretty awful behaviour, constantly. Inexcusably so. It's beyond mean, it is actually evil- "you disagree with me therefore I don't have to ever thank you for constantly saving my life". That is a high level of sociopath.


I would say both Avon AND Blake save each other's lives on a number of occasions. And I'm sure Blake does thank Avon. Quite a few times. Off the top of my head, he does in Redemption and he does in Trial.

Blake is definitely not a sociopath. He's just an ordinary bloke, held up to be a working class hero, who makes some horrible mistakes trying to live up to that hype! There's not much hidden to Blake. When he's trying to manipulate people, he's hardly subtle about it. Avon can read him like a book; he proves that in "Duel". Blake is simply a human being with flaws.


Do sarcastic thanks count? How do they balance against a threat to the person who just saved your life?
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
in redemption?
"go back to your position" is not "thanks"
http://www.hermit.org/b7/Episodes/scripts/Redemption.html

Also in Trial his Thanks are to the crew as a group, not to Avon personally. He THREATENS Avon, who just saved his hide again.

I'd love to be able to believe in Blake's good intentions. I'm just having too little evidence for them.
Edited by sooper mouse on 30 December 2016 23:41:59
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

in redemption?
"go back to your position" is not "thanks"
http://www.hermit.org/b7/Episodes/scripts/Redemption.html

Also in Trial his Thanks are to the crew as a group, not to Avon personally. He THREATENS Avon, who just saved his hide again.

I'd love to be able to believe in Blake's good intentions. I'm just having too little evidence for them.


In Redemption:

BLAKE: That is one I owe you.
AVON: Don't worry. At the right time, I will remind you of it.

In Trial:

BLAKE: Thank you. Next time I want to think, I'll do it in my cabin.
AVON: I should stick to action, Blake. That's what you're good at.
 
Rainesz
I would say both Avon AND Blake save each other's lives on a number of occasions. And I'm sure Blake does thank Avon. Quite a few times. Off the top of my head, he does in Redemption and he does in Trial.

Blake is definitely not a sociopath. He's just an ordinary bloke, held up to be a working class hero, who makes some horrible mistakes trying to live up to that hype! There's not much hidden to Blake. When he's trying to manipulate people, he's hardly subtle about it. Avon can read him like a book; he proves that in "Duel". Blake is simply a human being with flaws.


@Trevor Travis: Yes, this is exactly my reading of Blake, too. He's flawed, not malicious. He's trying to shake things up and sometimes he fails completely and lashes out, but it's what makes him a compelling character. And once again, he needs Avon to check him.

Avon fails miserably because he has no Blake to check him (or be whatever might stand in for a moral compass as far as Avon is concerned.)

Again: Avon and Blake work best together as a team because they manage to bring out the best as well as the worst in each other. They have a balance that teetered off course when there was no longer a Blake to take the blame for their failures.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

in redemption?
"go back to your position" is not "thanks"
http://www.hermit.org/b7/Episodes/scripts/Redemption.html

Also in Trial his Thanks are to the crew as a group, not to Avon personally. He THREATENS Avon, who just saved his hide again.

I'd love to be able to believe in Blake's good intentions. I'm just having too little evidence for them.


In Redemption:

BLAKE: That is one I owe you.
AVON: Don't worry. At the right time, I will remind you of it.

In Trial:

BLAKE: Thank you. Next time I want to think, I'll do it in my cabin.
AVON: I should stick to action, Blake. That's what you're good at.


the first is pointedly not a thanks but an admission of debt ( different things)
as stated before, the second thanks is a collective one. Not one to Avon specifically, and he literally threatens Avon 2 minutes later.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
Rainesz wrote:

I would say both Avon AND Blake save each other's lives on a number of occasions. And I'm sure Blake does thank Avon. Quite a few times. Off the top of my head, he does in Redemption and he does in Trial.

Blake is definitely not a sociopath. He's just an ordinary bloke, held up to be a working class hero, who makes some horrible mistakes trying to live up to that hype! There's not much hidden to Blake. When he's trying to manipulate people, he's hardly subtle about it. Avon can read him like a book; he proves that in "Duel". Blake is simply a human being with flaws.


@Trevor Travis: Yes, this is exactly my reading of Blake, too. He's flawed, not malicious. He's trying to shake things up and sometimes he fails completely and lashes out, but it's what makes him a compelling character. And once again, he needs Avon to check him.

Avon fails miserably because he has no Blake to check him (or be whatever might stand in for a moral compass as far as Avon is concerned.)

Again: Avon and Blake work best together as a team because they manage to bring out the best as well as the worst in each other. They have a balance that teetered off course when there was no longer a Blake to take the blame for their failures.

Flawed people get others hurt a lot more than those who are actually malicious. It doesn't make it better. Even the worst criminals think they are in the right, and zealots are the worst.

They don't work that well together. AS in, they don't *work* together. If they did, Blake would listen to Avon and wouldn't mess up all the damned time.
Not listening to someone and then having that someone have to come down and save your worthless behind is not "working together".
Blake fails because he's a zealot who puts his own ego ahead of everyone else and doesn't even have the courage to face the consequences of his own actions. Oh Gan died? I know, I'm gonna guilt trip everyone into saving me so I don't have to admit my guilt to their faces.
How stupid does Blake have to be to not even manage to shoot Travis several times? Just how many people get hurt because Blake doesn't realize, in his infinite idiocy, that Travis will continue to come after him until one of them is dead?

Avon fails because leadership was foisted upon him due to Blake's incompetence and manipulation. If Blake was even remotely decent, he'd have made the arrangements to leave the Liberator and provide for the others. here's a guy who doesn't want leadership, forced into a role that makes him blatantly uncomfortable and responsibility for a bunch of creatures he tolerates at best.
How's that his fault?
Edited by sooper mouse on 31 December 2016 08:56:44
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
I have difficulty I must confess in seeing Avon as a victim of evil, manipulative Blake!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
trevor travis
Anniew wrote:

I have difficulty I must confess in seeing Avon as a victim of evil, manipulative Blake!


Yes, it doesn't quite stack up for me either. Avon is the one who can actually read Blake. He proves that in "Duel"; he's the one who knows full well that Blake isn't going to kill Travis. Blake isn't the brightest and not capable of manipulating Avon.

We only see Avon manipulated by two people. Anna Grant is one of them, and he kills her. Servalan is the other (in Terminal) and he subsequently hates her for it.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

I have difficulty I must confess in seeing Avon as a victim of evil, manipulative Blake!


more like a victim of his own caring for Blake.
Constantly being taking for granted sucks.

Cause you see, if Blake is not evil and he's not stupid then he obviously IS aware that he is being horribly unfair to Avon and Vila, and he continues to do it.
So there's no actual good option here- either:
Blake is a fanatic and feels entitled to others' help and support without owing them anything in return(typical sociopath). Most zealots fall into this category- it's easier to care for a presumed adoring mass you don't see than for real people next to you who have their own issues and needs and how dare they not be fully dedicated to your cause?(imo the most likely scenario since he kinda cares for his devoted followers)
Or he is stupid and doesn't realize what he is doing (while I normally classify him as a stupid character, that's the least likely scenario. Blake is rash and inconsiderate, but he is not stupid)
Or he is *just* an ordinary bloke who just happens to be malicious- he knows what he does is wrong and mean and unfair but he keeps doing it because he just doesn't care enough.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
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