Login

Username

Password



Not a rebel yet?
CLICK HERE to register.

Forgotten your password?
Request a new one from Orac HERE.

Current User Info

· Lurkers Lurking: 8

· Rebels Active: 0

· Total Rebels: 918
· Newest Rebel: CarolinaJones

Login Help

If you are having problems logging in, please bear in mind that if you originally registered at the site before 8th January 2014 and you haven't re-registered since that date your old login details will no longer work. If this is the case, please re-register, preferably with your former username. If you are having trouble with the registration process itself, try looking HERE and HERE for help and advice. If you need further assistance, please do CONTACT us.

Current Poll

Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
15% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
Norm One - (Redemption)
2% [2 Votes]

Bek - (Shadow)
Bek - (Shadow)
6% [6 Votes]

Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
Kasabi - (Pressure Point)
19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [13 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
6% [6 Votes]

Votes: 95
Login to vote.
Started: 09 July 2016

Polls Archive

Forum Activity

Newest Articles

B7 Images

+ Cookies +

The Horizon website uses cookies to allow user log-in and navigation. The site does not host advertising that requires the use of third-party cookies. Registering as a member of this site implies your consent to the use of cookies.

View Thread

 Print Thread
When does Avon stop trusting Jenna?
peladon
dragonq wrote:

Avon has trust issues, generally; I never thought that Jenna was a particular problem with him. His problems are compounded by the fact that he has been betrayed by people he really did trust. The Anna Grant incident must have pre-disposed him to think the worst of Blake in the last episode, I am sure.

Avon has so much difficulty trusting people that I can't but think there must have been some massive trauma back in his childhood—perhaps abandonment by a parent (probably his mother, given his ambivalent attitude towards women).

The point about him expecting people to behave in a certain way is a good one—I think his interactions with Vila in particular prove this suggestion.


Hmmm. Give me a solid canon example of Avon 'having trust issues' by which I mean an instance where he doesnt trust that isnt explained by the context or situation. Also give me an example of Avon being ambivilent with respect to Women as opposed towards a specific person - I would have said he was pretty consistent.
 
Anniew
I think anyone who didn't have issues with trust in the society depicted would be insane. Dissidents are mind wiped, fitted with limiters, and can be mind controlled. Justice is perverted. People are cloned or androids are created in their place. Your girl friend might be working for Central Control. Your friends are out for themselves and will happily betray you. You risk being sold into slavery if your family displeases the Federation. Your family is killed or becomes enslaved if you step out of line. Top scientists move to obscure planets to continue working without political interference. Loyal soldiers are 'retrained' if they fail on a mission. Space is full of megalomaniacs.

I have never understood the basis for Blake's assertions that he trusts his crew. He cannot even trust his memories and his Uncle nearly betrayed him! Avon nearly spaces him in the third episode, Vila recommends they space Avon in episode 2. Cally is frequently taken over by aliens. Anybody he takes on board tries to kill the crew. He knows that Avon might run. His missions of mercy prove to be traps. What's with the trusting?

I think Blake is far madder than Avon. Healthy paranoia is the only sane attitude to have in a society where the bs really are out to get you. And as the series progresses the betrayals come thicker and faster.

No wonder Avon shoots Blake. The guy's posing as a bounty hunter using his real name and hadn't been in touch with Avon for two years. The planet he's chosen for his base is blockaded by Federation troops. He persuades Tarrant he's a bounty hunter. He tells Avon ( a man with a huge bounty on his head) that he, Blake the bounty hunter, is 'waiting for him'. Avon has to suspect he's a turncoat or being mind-controlled.
" A man who trusts can never be betrayed.." Cally.
" Life expectancy must be fairly short among your people" Avon

And it was! The Auronar trusted Servalan and were largely wiped out!

Moral of Blakes7. Don't trust anybody - even yourself!!!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

Answer: Never.
Explanation: because he never did in the first place.

Avon only trusted three people: Anna, Blake and Cally. He indirectly caused Cally to die, shot Anna after she betrayed him, and shot Blake after he thought the same had happened again.


but DOES Avon trust Cally? I mean we know he cares enough for her to be concerned about her well being, but why in God's name would anyone trust Cally?
She's weak, she gets taken over by various aliens, she is far too trusting and she has put the crew in danger in more than one occasion. Logically speaking, while Avon might like Cally, I'm fairly certain he wouldn't trust her, or anyone else.

The same applies with Jenna, but Jenna is a lot more reliable than Cally. It is likely that Avon decided that Jenna cared more about Blake than about her own personal safety, as someone said before, and therefore she becomes someone who cannot be trusted to behave rationally.

Which is why he never even attempts to go after Jenna.
 
sooper mouse
Anniew wrote:

I think anyone who didn't have issues with trust in the society depicted would be insane. Dissidents are mind wiped, fitted with limiters, and can be mind controlled. Justice is perverted. People are cloned or androids are created in their place. Your girl friend might be working for Central Control. Your friends are out for themselves and will happily betray you. You risk being sold into slavery if your family displeases the Federation. Your family is killed or becomes enslaved if you step out of line. Top scientists move to obscure planets to continue working without political interference. Loyal soldiers are 'retrained' if they fail on a mission. Space is full of megalomaniacs.

I have never understood the basis for Blake's assertions that he trusts his crew. He cannot even trust his memories and his Uncle nearly betrayed him! Avon nearly spaces him in the third episode, Vila recommends they space Avon in episode 2. Cally is frequently taken over by aliens. Anybody he takes on board tries to kill the crew. He knows that Avon might run. His missions of mercy prove to be traps. What's with the trusting?

I think Blake is far madder than Avon. Healthy paranoia is the only sane attitude to have in a society where the bs really are out to get you. And as the series progresses the betrayals come thicker and faster.

No wonder Avon shoots Blake. The guy's posing as a bounty hunter using his real name and hadn't been in touch with Avon for two years. The planet he's chosen for his base is blockaded by Federation troops. He persuades Tarrant he's a bounty hunter. He tells Avon ( a man with a huge bounty on his head) that he, Blake the bounty hunter, is 'waiting for him'. Avon has to suspect he's a turncoat or being mind-controlled.
" A man who trusts can never be betrayed.." Cally.
" Life expectancy must be fairly short among your people" Avon

And it was! The Auronar trusted Servalan and were largely wiped out!

Moral of Blakes7. Don't trust anybody - even yourself!!!


Annie, that's an awesome analysis
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Anniew
Well thank you!
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
Klenotka
Anniew wrote:

I think anyone who didn't have issues with trust in the society depicted would be insane. Dissidents are mind wiped, fitted with limiters, and can be mind controlled. Justice is perverted. People are cloned or androids are created in their place. Your girl friend might be working for Central Control. Your friends are out for themselves and will happily betray you. You risk being sold into slavery if your family displeases the Federation. Your family is killed or becomes enslaved if you step out of line. Top scientists move to obscure planets to continue working without political interference. Loyal soldiers are 'retrained' if they fail on a mission. Space is full of megalomaniacs.

I have never understood the basis for Blake's assertions that he trusts his crew. He cannot even trust his memories and his Uncle nearly betrayed him! Avon nearly spaces him in the third episode, Vila recommends they space Avon in episode 2. Cally is frequently taken over by aliens. Anybody he takes on board tries to kill the crew. He knows that Avon might run. His missions of mercy prove to be traps. What's with the trusting?

I think Blake is far madder than Avon. Healthy paranoia is the only sane attitude to have in a society where the bs really are out to get you. And as the series progresses the betrayals come thicker and faster.

No wonder Avon shoots Blake. The guy's posing as a bounty hunter using his real name and hadn't been in touch with Avon for two years. The planet he's chosen for his base is blockaded by Federation troops. He persuades Tarrant he's a bounty hunter. He tells Avon ( a man with a huge bounty on his head) that he, Blake the bounty hunter, is 'waiting for him'. Avon has to suspect he's a turncoat or being mind-controlled.
" A man who trusts can never be betrayed.." Cally.
" Life expectancy must be fairly short among your people" Avon

And it was! The Auronar trusted Servalan and were largely wiped out!

Moral of Blakes7. Don't trust anybody - even yourself!!!


You are so right about this. That is one of many things that was fascinating about characters on B7 and their relationships. Blake started with good intentions but he had no plan, only was lucky enough to get to the ship first, he makes bad decisions, tells the other people on the ship where they are going the moment they arrive etc. He was either incredibly naive, stupid or crazy...or all of that. Avon, Jenna or Villa knew from the beginning why they were there, and it was not for Blake. Yet he chose to trust them. But he developed a weird relationship with Avon who started to believe in Blake´s ideals more than Blake himself (much later after Blake´s "death", of course). It was impressive to watch and the ending when they all died was basically given since...well, maybe even since Gan died...
Don´t be Lasagne
 
sooper mouse
Klenotka wrote:

Anniew wrote:

I think anyone who didn't have issues with trust in the society depicted would be insane. Dissidents are mind wiped, fitted with limiters, and can be mind controlled. Justice is perverted. People are cloned or androids are created in their place. Your girl friend might be working for Central Control. Your friends are out for themselves and will happily betray you. You risk being sold into slavery if your family displeases the Federation. Your family is killed or becomes enslaved if you step out of line. Top scientists move to obscure planets to continue working without political interference. Loyal soldiers are 'retrained' if they fail on a mission. Space is full of megalomaniacs.

I have never understood the basis for Blake's assertions that he trusts his crew. He cannot even trust his memories and his Uncle nearly betrayed him! Avon nearly spaces him in the third episode, Vila recommends they space Avon in episode 2. Cally is frequently taken over by aliens. Anybody he takes on board tries to kill the crew. He knows that Avon might run. His missions of mercy prove to be traps. What's with the trusting?

I think Blake is far madder than Avon. Healthy paranoia is the only sane attitude to have in a society where the bs really are out to get you. And as the series progresses the betrayals come thicker and faster.

No wonder Avon shoots Blake. The guy's posing as a bounty hunter using his real name and hadn't been in touch with Avon for two years. The planet he's chosen for his base is blockaded by Federation troops. He persuades Tarrant he's a bounty hunter. He tells Avon ( a man with a huge bounty on his head) that he, Blake the bounty hunter, is 'waiting for him'. Avon has to suspect he's a turncoat or being mind-controlled.
" A man who trusts can never be betrayed.." Cally.
" Life expectancy must be fairly short among your people" Avon

And it was! The Auronar trusted Servalan and were largely wiped out!

Moral of Blakes7. Don't trust anybody - even yourself!!!


You are so right about this. That is one of many things that was fascinating about characters on B7 and their relationships. Blake started with good intentions but he had no plan, only was lucky enough to get to the ship first, he makes bad decisions, tells the other people on the ship where they are going the moment they arrive etc. He was either incredibly naive, stupid or crazy...or all of that. Avon, Jenna or Villa knew from the beginning why they were there, and it was not for Blake. Yet he chose to trust them. But he developed a weird relationship with Avon who started to believe in Blake´s ideals more than Blake himself (much later after Blake´s "death", of course). It was impressive to watch and the ending when they all died was basically given since...well, maybe even since Gan died...


I disagree. The end could have gone either way easily, if Blake would have just answered Avon's questions, which he could if he just wasn't so damned happy about seeing Avon.

Everything else is correct though. Blake takes his crew for granted, and that is just not very bright.

In truth, Blake lives and breathes revenge, and is so eager to take it he feels entitled to sacrifice the lives of his crew to obtain it. It's somewhat funny that the roles have reversed by "Blake"- where Blake himself had become a hardened realist while Avon, who has lost everything, lives and breathes idealism.
As per Chris Boucher

"His ambition right from the start had been to get rich and then retire to a place in the sun, but finally, when it came to the last episode, Avon, either despite himself, or because of what had happened to him, believed in Blake's friendship. No, I've sort of skirted round the word, he had come to believe in Blake's love for him, and Blake was the last possible thing he could believe in. Having lost everything that he had ever believed in, there was one last possibility for faith, for belief, for love and when it became apparent to Avon that Blake had betrayed him, he killed him and Avon had absolutely no choice, but to kill him. The final irony of course, was he then realized that he'd made a mistake, he was wrong, Blake hadn't betrayed him at all. Which was basically funny, and which was why, I guess, Avon smiles in the final frame."

http://www.kaldor..._1992.html
Edited by sooper mouse on 14 January 2017 21:40:50
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Jump to Forum:
Orac rendered this page in 0.63 seconds
9,476,307 unique visits since 8th January 2014