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Vila: a darker character?
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
VIla is kind of a victim in all this because he is undoubtedly the only genuinely good person there.


Er, Vila suggests killing Avon as early as "Space Fall". He's not the great innocent by any means.


no, but he's the most innocent of them, and the little innocence he has left he keeps because he's not that involved in most of the bloodiest parts. he doesn't get to make much in way of decisions therefore he can maintain a certain degree of plausible deniability.


Vila mans the Neutron Blaster. Think about that for a moment.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
VIla is kind of a victim in all this because he is undoubtedly the only genuinely good person there.


Er, Vila suggests killing Avon as early as "Space Fall". He's not the great innocent by any means.


no, but he's the most innocent of them, and the little innocence he has left he keeps because he's not that involved in most of the bloodiest parts. he doesn't get to make much in way of decisions therefore he can maintain a certain degree of plausible deniability.


Vila mans the Neutron Blaster. Think about that for a moment.


so? he doesn't make the decisions, he follows orders. He's rarely in the team that goes to the ground and actually kills people and sees them die.
It's a well known thing with veterans that people who arent directly seeing their victims die are a lot less scared than those who do.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

so? he doesn't make the decisions, he follows orders.


I don't think that's a defence. Grin

I think we see the series in different ways. I see it in various shades of grey. Therefore, I don't see Vila as a complete innocent, or Avon as a cold-hearted murderer.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

so? he doesn't make the decisions, he follows orders.


I don't think that's a defence. Grin

I think we see the series in different ways. I see it in various shades of grey. Therefore, I don't see Vila as a complete innocent, or Avon as a cold-hearted murderer.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Then you missed my point, because I said neither. I didn't say Vila was a complete innocent, I sad he was the most innocent of the crew. These things are different. Nuances are important here. Everybody sees what they want to see, eye of the beholder and all that.

Is Avon a murderer? technically yes, but at the same time his psychology is not that of a normal human being so his crimes aren't actually malicious as much as they are a consequence of who and what he is, and that isn't remotely normal. I don't need to make excuses for him to like him- my autism makes me a somewhat similar type of utilitarian so I can understand where he's coming from.


It's a matter of what behaviour you choose to normalize and accept. You're willing to normalize Avon's behaviour but not Vila's significantly smaller crimes. That's hugely inconsistent since, if anyone can be argued to be the normal character in all this, it would be Vila.

I am a great fan of Avon, and I can understand his reasons which are all logical and pragmatic- he doesn't kill anyone recklessly, but for a reason. However, that reasoning is what makes him a psychopath because humans don't function like that.
It depends on how you apply the standards across the board. Vila saying half jokingly "let's kill him" is not remotely on the same level with actual cold blooded crimes. That is the problem- either we apply the same standard to all or we don't.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

so? he doesn't make the decisions, he follows orders.


I don't think that's a defence. Grin

I think we see the series in different ways. I see it in various shades of grey. Therefore, I don't see Vila as a complete innocent, or Avon as a cold-hearted murderer.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Then you missed my point, because I said neither. I didn't say Vila was a complete innocent, I sad he was the most innocent of the crew. These things are different. Nuances are important here. Everybody sees what they want to see, eye of the beholder and all that.

Is Avon a murderer? technically yes, but at the same time his psychology is not that of a normal human being so his crimes aren't actually malicious as much as they are a consequence of who and what he is, and that isn't remotely normal. I don't need to make excuses for him to like him- my autism makes me a somewhat similar type of utilitarian so I can understand where he's coming from.


It's a matter of what behaviour you choose to normalize and accept. You're willing to normalize Avon's behaviour but not Vila's significantly smaller crimes. That's hugely inconsistent since, if anyone can be argued to be the normal character in all this, it would be Vila.

I am a great fan of Avon, and I can understand his reasons which are all logical and pragmatic- he doesn't kill anyone recklessly, but for a reason. However, that reasoning is what makes him a psychopath because humans don't function like that.
It depends on how you apply the standards across the board. Vila saying half jokingly "let's kill him" is not remotely on the same level with actual cold blooded crimes. That is the problem- either we apply the same standard to all or we don't.


Both are normal people responding to extraordinary circumstances.

And I'd say Cally, Jenna and Gan are all more innocent than Vila. They are less criminal in their behaviour.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

so? he doesn't make the decisions, he follows orders.


I don't think that's a defence. Grin

I think we see the series in different ways. I see it in various shades of grey. Therefore, I don't see Vila as a complete innocent, or Avon as a cold-hearted murderer.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Then you missed my point, because I said neither. I didn't say Vila was a complete innocent, I sad he was the most innocent of the crew. These things are different. Nuances are important here. Everybody sees what they want to see, eye of the beholder and all that.

Is Avon a murderer? technically yes, but at the same time his psychology is not that of a normal human being so his crimes aren't actually malicious as much as they are a consequence of who and what he is, and that isn't remotely normal. I don't need to make excuses for him to like him- my autism makes me a somewhat similar type of utilitarian so I can understand where he's coming from.


It's a matter of what behaviour you choose to normalize and accept. You're willing to normalize Avon's behaviour but not Vila's significantly smaller crimes. That's hugely inconsistent since, if anyone can be argued to be the normal character in all this, it would be Vila.

I am a great fan of Avon, and I can understand his reasons which are all logical and pragmatic- he doesn't kill anyone recklessly, but for a reason. However, that reasoning is what makes him a psychopath because humans don't function like that.
It depends on how you apply the standards across the board. Vila saying half jokingly "let's kill him" is not remotely on the same level with actual cold blooded crimes. That is the problem- either we apply the same standard to all or we don't.


Both are normal people responding to extraordinary circumstances.

They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.


Nevertheless, Gan and Cally both question Blake on his actions. Does Vila? No, he just wants to destroy things with the Neutron Blasters!
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.


Nevertheless, Gan and Cally both question Blake on his actions. Does Vila? No, he just wants to destroy things with the Neutron Blasters!


Where did you see him enjoying it? he never shows any sign of it being enjoyable for him. I suggest you watch it again, and pay attention to what the characters do, not what you think they do.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.


Nevertheless, Gan and Cally both question Blake on his actions. Does Vila? No, he just wants to destroy things with the Neutron Blasters!


Where did you see him enjoying it? he never shows any sign of it being enjoyable for him. I suggest you watch it again, and pay attention to what the characters do, not what you think they do.


BLAKE It's time to use the neutron blasters.
VILA At last. I've been looking forward to this.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.


Nevertheless, Gan and Cally both question Blake on his actions. Does Vila? No, he just wants to destroy things with the Neutron Blasters!


them questioning Blake doesn't make them innocent. They went along with it afterwards.
This is the difference- words and actions are not equal things. Someone saying "i will kill you" and someone else actually killing you are not the same thing and are not equal crimes.
Nobody died from words.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
They aren't. Vila is a petty criminal who fell in with the wrong(er) crowd. Avon is Avon.


Surely Vila is wrong(er) than Cally, Jenna and Gan. They all have more morals than Vila does.


debatable. who is darker, a person who has morals and acts against them or someone who never had them?
people have the morals they can afford.
Morals have this thing where they are incompatible with survival. The moral characters have this annoying habit of dying stupidly, see Deeta Tarrant.


Nevertheless, Gan and Cally both question Blake on his actions. Does Vila? No, he just wants to destroy things with the Neutron Blasters!


Where did you see him enjoying it? he never shows any sign of it being enjoyable for him. I suggest you watch it again, and pay attention to what the characters do, not what you think they do.


BLAKE It's time to use the neutron blasters.
VILA At last. I've been looking forward to this.


So when Avon says something his words shouldn't be taken at face value, but Vila's should?
I am sorry but I cannot continue this discussion, it is far too illogical. Either apply your standards equally to everyone or drop them.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
So when Avon says something his words shouldn't be taken at face value, but Vila's should?
I am sorry but I cannot continue this discussion, it is far too illogical. Either apply your standards equally to everyone or drop them.


But Avon hadn't said it in Space Fall - other characters had made an assumption.

Here you go:

AVON Define the problem then.
BLAKE How to avoid spending the rest of our lives on Cygnus Alpha.
VILA That may not be a problem. [Leans over] I've heard a rumour that these prison ships don't actually go all the way to Cygnus. They wait until they're in deep space, and then quietly dump you out of an airlock.
AVON You're a fool.
JENNA They are on a fixed price contract. They get paid the same whether we get there or not. And hyperdrive running is expensive.
VILA So they dump us and save themselves a trip!
BLAKE [To Avon] Could it be altered?
AVON What?
BLAKE The running log. Could the readings be faked?
AVON Only by a top-line technician. Nobody on this ship could do it.
BLAKE Except you.
AVON Naturally.
JENNA Was it wise to put that idea into his head?
VILA What idea?
BLAKE Oh, he's bright. He'd already thought of it.
VILA What? What?
JENNA He fixes the log, the crew dump us, pocket the profit, and set him free.
VILA That's immoral. The cold-hearted murdering -- let's kill him now before he can do it.

and

AVON Give me one good reason why I should help you.
BLAKE You're a civilized man, Avon. On Cygnus Alpha that will not be a survival characteristic.
AVON An intelligent man can adapt.
BLAKE Or recognize an alternative.
AVON I already have one.
BLAKE A private deal with the ship's crew to fake the running log? You've had four months to think about that. And it didn't take you that long to work out that they would have to kill you afterwards to keep you quiet.

All assumptions.


Vila hardly used the Neutron Blasters reluctantly - he couldn't wait to get his hands on them. It might not fit your vision of Vila, but it's actually there in the show.
Edited by trevor travis on 19 November 2016 02:26:03
 
President Solvite
Re Neutron blasters

The phrase boys with toys comes to mind. (and of course I'm sure the ladies like handy little gadgets too!)

Vila appreciated the finer things in life, and was a hedonist. Why not? Vila came from a deprived background and wanted a piece of what the other half had.

Vila seemed to enjoy talking to Orac, and of course he was only too ready to visit leisure locations to 'play scrabble' and socialise with the ladies etc.
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
trevor travis
President Solvite wrote:

Re Neutron blasters

The phrase boys with toys comes to mind. (and of course I'm sure the ladies like handy little gadgets too!)

Vila appreciated the finer things in life, and was a hedonist. Why not? Vila came from a deprived background and wanted a piece of what the other half had.

Vila seemed to enjoy talking to Orac, and of course he was only too ready to visit leisure locations to 'play scrabble' and socialise with the ladies etc.


I think that's part of Vila and the neutron blasters - it was a toy.

It also shows that Blake was aware that Vila was 'no innocent' and 'no fool' by entrusting the neutron blasters to Vila. He gave Vila the job of blowing the Federation ships out of the sky.

Not sure if was 'scrabble' that Vila was playing in Space City, through. Grin I think it's just as well that scene is filmed from the Liberator, with Vila on communicator. The mind boggles at what Vila was up to at that point - he'd 'picked his pleasure'! But yes that episode definitely does show Vila enjoying hedonistic activities.

I don't feel any need to feel any sympathy towards Vila. He's chosen to stay with the Liberator and Scorpio crews, but it gives him a sense of purpose and also allows him to live a life he's never lived before. He's not a fool and he's not an innocent.

On the other hand, he is the easiest crew member to empathise with, and I think that's why he's turned into my favourite character these last few years. Vila is likable, Avon far less so.
 
President Solvite
I think its safe to show anything goes with Vila...

'pick a pleasure' etc... and as for items to consume he wouldn't be above a 'sherbet dib-dab' either.

Vila would be the ultimate party animal... Not above a pub crawl, kebab outing and a hair of a dog and a bacon/fried egg butty the morning after.

Like I said earlier or elsewhere... What is there not to like, he would be a great addition to any 'stag-night' do... He probably also would hack a cash point when funds run low! I know Avon could do that also, but he would just mope around at the back complaining he couldn't get decent bandwidth on his mobile/wifi connection. Grin
 
http://nothingsforgotten.freeforums.net/
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
So when Avon says something his words shouldn't be taken at face value, but Vila's should?
I am sorry but I cannot continue this discussion, it is far too illogical. Either apply your standards equally to everyone or drop them.


But Avon hadn't said it in Space Fall - other characters had made an assumption.

Here you go:

AVON Define the problem then.
BLAKE How to avoid spending the rest of our lives on Cygnus Alpha.
VILA That may not be a problem. [Leans over] I've heard a rumour that these prison ships don't actually go all the way to Cygnus. They wait until they're in deep space, and then quietly dump you out of an airlock.
AVON You're a fool.
JENNA They are on a fixed price contract. They get paid the same whether we get there or not. And hyperdrive running is expensive.
VILA So they dump us and save themselves a trip!
BLAKE [To Avon] Could it be altered?
AVON What?
BLAKE The running log. Could the readings be faked?
AVON Only by a top-line technician. Nobody on this ship could do it.
BLAKE Except you.
AVON Naturally.
JENNA Was it wise to put that idea into his head?
VILA What idea?
BLAKE Oh, he's bright. He'd already thought of it.
VILA What? What?
JENNA He fixes the log, the crew dump us, pocket the profit, and set him free.
VILA That's immoral. The cold-hearted murdering -- let's kill him now before he can do it.

and

AVON Give me one good reason why I should help you.
BLAKE You're a civilized man, Avon. On Cygnus Alpha that will not be a survival characteristic.
AVON An intelligent man can adapt.
BLAKE Or recognize an alternative.
AVON I already have one.
BLAKE A private deal with the ship's crew to fake the running log? You've had four months to think about that. And it didn't take you that long to work out that they would have to kill you afterwards to keep you quiet.

All assumptions.



Vila hardly used the Neutron Blasters reluctantly - he couldn't wait to get his hands on them. It might not fit your vision of Vila, but it's actually there in the show.


you put a lot of weight on your own assumptions. Basic courtesy requires that you give at least an equal weight to mine.

There is of course the matter of body language without which you'd be correct.
Not only does Avon's body language show that he is capable and willing to do the log faking, but the fact that at no point does he act as if the idea is wrong, even if it was with one of his scoffs.
That "Naturally" and the flashy grin is as close to an admission as Avon is capable of.
pbs.twimg.com/media/Cxni3jIXEAAEii2.jpg
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
you put a lot of weight on your own assumptions.


Not my assumptions - it's the others who make the assumption that Avon would be willing to fix the log, so that they can be dumped in space.

Within an episode, Blake has Avon worked out. When Avon pulls a gun on Blake in Cygnus Alpha, Blake knows he's not going to use it. He already has worked out that Avon's bark is worse than his bite.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
you put a lot of weight on your own assumptions.


Not my assumptions - it's the others who make the assumption that Avon would be willing to fix the log, so that they can be dumped in space.

Within an episode, Blake has Avon worked out. When Avon pulls a gun on Blake in Cygnus Alpha, Blake knows he's not going to use it. He already has worked out that Avon's bark is worse than his bite.

Yeah, that's why Avon ends up killing him.
Constantly repeating the same hollow argument is dishonest debate, and I have better things to do with my time.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
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