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Describe Blake's 7
Henry Eggleton
trevor travis wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

[quote]


A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'


Except that this incident, and Shadow (daft plot) aside he doesnt fit into that category


It could be argued that in seeking to destroy Star One and thus upset the climate control on over 100 worlds (at least to those inhabitants) as the act of a monster.


Henry, whether Blake's potential actions in "Star One" can be defended or not is a far bigger discussion, that deserves a thread all of its own... in the Duel section Grin


I agree but for this thread I think you would be hard pressed to find any on one of those 100 worlds who would not have thought his actions as monstrous to them.
What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
trevor travis
Henry, thread now started Cool
 
meegat39
trevor travis wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

or how about "would you rather we had ALL died?"


That sounds like Avon - killing the conversation, and making sure everyone know he's just saved the day Angry

Meegat, I think we've discussed this before... in a pub somewhere between Goth and Star One Grin

I think we agreed that the deterioration of Avon makes fascintaing if slightly uncomfortable viewing. It's not often that a TV series will show the "hero" coming under such stress and starting to lose his grip (I won't say sanity, because Avon is not mad by "Blake", just in need of a psychotherapist).

Sacrificing Dr Plaxton is something Avon would have done, whatever point of B7. It's the logical decision. But his cold "Who?" comment is something specific to Season D.


Yes I agree. He would have done it any point - had the need arisen, and the cold "Who" comment was specific to Season D. Lorna, I also agree it does make it uncomfortable viewing.
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
peladon
[quote]Henry Eggleton wrote:

And the largest theft from the Federation Banking Cartel as well as the con at Freedom City were as far as we can tell purely to become rich.
Thus in asking what Avon did that was immoral we need go no further than the above.
[/

Well.. in the case of the first it seems to have been about being safe rather than rich. He describes wealth as the only reality and the only way to get it being to steal it. In Federation society that might well be the case and fits with what we know about his life until he makes that decision. True, there are a number of occassions where he says he has a fancy to be rich - but which of us doesnt at some time or another - does that make everyone who says it immoral? Freedom City - well it was pretty corrupt and immoral itself so perhaps he felt 'those who live by the sword etc..." Morally dubious actions maybe but that does not make much of what he does 'morally outrageous'.Smile
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:
[quote]

A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'

Except that this incident, and Shadow (daft plot) aside he doesnt fit into that category



It could be argued that in seeking to destroy Star One and thus upset the climate control on over 100 worlds (at least to those inhabitants) as the act of a monster.


Well thats a pretty daft plot too.
How did Blake/Cally know it would destroy climates? Its pretty clear that Control didnt and that was what Star One replaced. Would the Federation broadcast it, given that they didnt even tell anyone in power where it was? No. And would you really put something that important so close to a known point of possible invasion (only reason for the minefield)? No.

Its one of the occassion where Blake acts totally OoC for no good reason other than to give an opportunity to pad the script. Oh and give him another sentace to say. Does it make him a monster - well its OoC so its hard to say that it does overall, just that he isnt acting like himself
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

or how about "would you rather we had ALL died?"


That sounds like Avon - killing the conversation, and making sure everyone know he's just saved the day Angry

Meegat, I think we've discussed this before... in a pub somewhere between Goth and Star One Grin

I think we agreed that the deterioration of Avon makes fascintaing if slightly uncomfortable viewing. It's not often that a TV series will show the "hero" coming under such stress and starting to lose his grip (I won't say sanity, because Avon is not mad by "Blake", just in need of a psychotherapist).

Sacrificing Dr Plaxton is something Avon would have done, whatever point of B7. It's the logical decision. But his cold "Who?" comment is something specific to Season D.



Na, he doesnt show signs of stress or any other anxiety or related disorder, nor of battle fatigue or PTSD, hes just a sane example of a different type of man. In other words not the character of the previous series, other than that its just purple plotting and inconsistent writing,.
 
Henry Eggleton

Well thats a pretty daft plot too.
How did Blake/Cally know it would destroy climates? Its pretty clear that Control didnt and that was what Star One replaced. Would the Federation broadcast it, given that they didnt even tell anyone in power where it was? No. And would you really put something that important so close to a known point of possible invasion (only reason for the minefield)? No.

Its one of the occassion where Blake acts totally OoC for no good reason other than to give an opportunity to pad the script. Oh and give him another sentace to say. Does it make him a monster - well its OoC so its hard to say that it does overall, just that he isnt acting like himself


Like the plot or not it shows that the strain of fighting has taken its toll on Blake, also as has been mentioned booby trapping the Ortega to kill the pirates showed a similar ruthless streak back in season 1.
As for knowing about the climate control. again it can be inferred from the following quote:


CALLY Many, many people will die without Star One.
BLAKE I know.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

meegat39 wrote:

or how about "would you rather we had ALL died?"


That sounds like Avon - killing the conversation, and making sure everyone know he's just saved the day Angry

Meegat, I think we've discussed this before... in a pub somewhere between Goth and Star One Grin

I think we agreed that the deterioration of Avon makes fascintaing if slightly uncomfortable viewing. It's not often that a TV series will show the "hero" coming under such stress and starting to lose his grip (I won't say sanity, because Avon is not mad by "Blake", just in need of a psychotherapist).

Sacrificing Dr Plaxton is something Avon would have done, whatever point of B7. It's the logical decision. But his cold "Who?" comment is something specific to Season D.



Na, he doesnt show signs of stress or any other anxiety or related disorder, nor of battle fatigue or PTSD, hes just a sane example of a different type of man. In other words not the character of the previous series, other than that its just purple plotting and inconsistent writing,.


I agree he's sane, but I do think he's man under extreme stress.

"I need to kill her myself", "Who?", the laugh at the end of "Gold", plus gunning Blake down, are all signs that Avon is suffering from some sort of stress-related illness.

It is still the Avon we've seen from Seasons A to C. There's plenty of little moments which show that, right up until the moment he works out the solution in "Warlord" through logic, at a time everyone else has lost their heads. That's the Avon we saw in "Space Fall", still there.
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

Like the plot or not it shows that the strain of fighting has taken its toll on Blake, also as has been mentioned booby trapping the Ortega to kill the pirates showed a similar ruthless streak back in season 1.
As for knowing about the climate control. again it can be inferred from the following quote:


CALLY Many, many people will die without Star One.
BLAKE I know.


Oh quite true, its canon however stupid the route by which it got to be. But there is no indication that Blake really knew the costs of destroying Star One, other than Cally's comment and that could have meant other things too, even assuming the popular conclusions about that are correct. It doesnt change the fact that his behaviour in parts of this episode, and not all of it, is an abberation for Blake, and not his usual character. Yes that character included a ruthless streak - something most people who will go against a corrupt status quo will have to have. Hence my unwilligness to accept that all of, or even most, of his actions are morally outrageous.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

I agree he's sane, but I do think he's man under extreme stress.

"I need to kill her myself", "Who?", the laugh at the end of "Gold", plus gunning Blake down, are all signs that Avon is suffering from some sort of stress-related illness.

It is still the Avon we've seen from Seasons A to C. There's plenty of little moments which show that, right up until the moment he works out the solution in "Warlord" through logic, at a time everyone else has lost their heads. That's the Avon we saw in "Space Fall", still there.


Just purple plotting, there isnt any sign that he is sufferring any form of illness, and precious few signs of the 'real' Avon other than Warlord. He isnt the same man as the previous series which explains all the change; but we have had this conversation before and you will not agree with that and nor will I change my view so....
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

I agree he's sane, but I do think he's man under extreme stress.

"I need to kill her myself", "Who?", the laugh at the end of "Gold", plus gunning Blake down, are all signs that Avon is suffering from some sort of stress-related illness.

It is still the Avon we've seen from Seasons A to C. There's plenty of little moments which show that, right up until the moment he works out the solution in "Warlord" through logic, at a time everyone else has lost their heads. That's the Avon we saw in "Space Fall", still there.


Just purple plotting, there isnt any sign that he is sufferring any form of illness, and precious few signs of the 'real' Avon other than Warlord. He isnt the same man as the previous series which explains all the change; but we have had this conversation before and you will not agree with that and nor will I change my view so....


Peladon - agreed, we won't agree on this Grin

But I always see the canon as being all 52 episodes, so all 52 have to fit in, as far as the characters are concerned.

For example, people can't exclude "Mission To Destiny" because Blake dishes out justice from the wild west, just as others can't exclude "Killer", where Blake is a little whiter than white than usual. All have to fit in to describe the overall character of Blake.

But as for Season D Avon, nope we'll never agree on that one AngryCool
 
Henry Eggleton
peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

Like the plot or not it shows that the strain of fighting has taken its toll on Blake, also as has been mentioned booby trapping the Ortega to kill the pirates showed a similar ruthless streak back in season 1.
As for knowing about the climate control. again it can be inferred from the following quote:


CALLY Many, many people will die without Star One.
BLAKE I know.


Oh quite true, its canon however stupid the route by which it got to be. But there is no indication that Blake really knew the costs of destroying Star One, other than Cally's comment and that could have meant other things too, even assuming the popular conclusions about that are correct. It doesnt change the fact that his behaviour in parts of this episode, and not all of it, is an abberation for Blake, and not his usual character. Yes that character included a ruthless streak - something most people who will go against a corrupt status quo will have to have. Hence my unwilligness to accept that all of, or even most, of his actions are morally outrageous.


So what do you propose?
The episode exists as part of the canon, a very important part. It would seem reasonable that Blake had Orac tell him everything it could find about Star One. whilst it's location was a secret the function of Central Control (Star One) it function was not. This would include climate control and flight control of Space Ships inside Federation systems.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
Spaceship Dispatcher
How would I describe the show...

There's a group of characters who are labelled as criminals and terrorists, but who believe their values on justice and fairness are superior to the authorities that have cast them out. Unwilling to merely run away and hide, this group of talented and courageous individuals fight for what they think is right; the lives of anyone that meets them are never the same again. There is one law enforcement agent inparticular who is on the trail of the crew but who is always a step behind and never is victorious over them. The series is especially popular because of the interchanges of dialogue between the characters, who are all memorable and individual which makes it a very character driven show. One character is popular with fans because he is portrayed as a coward for comic relief, but is actually a very brave and loyal person. Also, the show has a reputation not giving female characters a lot of power in the stories, but actually has more than one very strong role for the female cast members. Whether or not the characters use violence willingly or gratuitously is also debated quite heatedly, which makes it a very three dimensional show from a character motivation and morality point of view. Always entertaining, whatever the detractors say.











Sorry... that's the A-Team Grin
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

How would I describe the show...

There's a group of characters who are labelled as criminals and terrorists, but who believe their values on justice and fairness are superior to the authorities that have cast them out. Unwilling to merely run away and hide, this group of talented and courageous individuals fight for what they think is right; the lives of anyone that meets them are never the same again. There is one law enforcement agent inparticular who is on the trail of the crew but who is always a step behind and never is victorious over them. The series is especially popular because of the interchanges of dialogue between the characters, who are all memorable and individual which makes it a very character driven show. One character is popular with fans because he is portrayed as a coward for comic relief, but is actually a very brave and loyal person. Also, the show has a reputation not giving female characters a lot of power in the stories, but actually has more than one very strong role for the female cast members. Whether or not the characters use violence willingly or gratuitously is also debated quite heatedly, which makes it a very three dimensional show from a character motivation and morality point of view. Always entertaining, whatever the detractors say.











Sorry... that's the A-Team Grin


GrinGrin
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:


Peladon - agreed, we won't agree on this Grin

But I always see the canon as being all 52 episodes, so all 52 have to fit in, as far as the characters are concerned.

For example, people can't exclude "Mission To Destiny" because Blake dishes out justice from the wild west, just as others can't exclude "Killer", where Blake is a little whiter than white than usual. All have to fit in to describe the overall character of Blake.

But as for Season D Avon, nope we'll never agree on that one AngryCool


LOL, Oh I know its canon - wrong as it is on most levels. I'm a canonista, whats on the screen is what is for me, one way or another. Ive spent many hours on analysis, had a lot of innocent enjoyment, and written over half a million words, trying to make S4 canon make sense...

No we wont agree Smile
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

So what do you propose?
The episode exists as part of the canon, a very important part. It would seem reasonable that Blake had Orac tell him everything it could find about Star One. whilst it's location was a secret the function of Central Control (Star One) it function was not. This would include climate control and flight control of Space Ships inside Federation systems.


No more important than any other part of canon however, you cant ignore it but nor can you define Blake's character on it. But I think this has now moved to another thread....
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
The debate about Star One has moved to a new thread in the Duel forum.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Sopron
LOL, Oh I know its canon - wrong as it is on most levels. I'm a canonista, whats on the screen is what is for me, one way or another. Ive spent many hours on analysis, had a lot of innocent enjoyment, and written over half a million words, trying to make S4 canon make sense...



Speaking of which, is there any chance of a dew more words in your epic some time in the near future? I've really enjoyed the afterlife you've written and keep checking to see if there's more.






Rats, that was supposed to be a quote from and reply to Peladon but I seem to have mucked up the formatting...
 
Sopron
JustBrad wrote:

Robin Hood leads The Dirty Dozen against Big Brother in Space.


Certainly works for the first 2 series but what about the rest?

I've always liked the one about the bunch of crooks with astonishing dress sense and the chick that thinks evening dress is appropriate office wear, myself!
 
Vanessa Doffenshmirtz
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:
One character is popular with fans because he is portrayed as a coward for comic relief, but is actually a very brave and loyal person. Also, the show has a reputation not giving female characters a lot of power in the stories, but actually has more than one very strong role for the female cast members. Whether or not the characters use violence willingly or gratuitously is also debated quite heatedly, which makes it a very three dimensional show from a character motivation and morality point of view. Always entertaining, whatever the detractors say.











Sorry... that's the A-Team Grin



gigglesnorts...but I'm not sure which A-Team character is shown as being a coward...Face doesn't like beioing hit but he's no coward...

I'll ignore how Amy and later Tawnia were treated....since George Peppard wanted the eye-candy gone.
I used to be such a sweet sweet thing
Till they got a hold of me.
 
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