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Describe Blake's 7
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

Avon is a self-serving character; not a moral one.

But I don't really see the alternative at the end of "Stardrive". He needs to act, and to act quickly to prevent the whole crew from becoming atoms in space. I don't think Dr Plaxton would have sacrificed herself willingly (why would she, she's only just met these people), so giving her the choice wouldn't have worked. Avon did what he had to do. As usual in Season D, the rest of the crew and gutless and just let Avon make all the hard decisions. No wonder he found himself under strain, no matter how self-inflicted after his huge cock-up in Terminal.

Avon acted in the way he had to. I don't have a problem with that. What's far more worrying is his reply to Dayna: a cold "Who?". Once upon a time, Avon would have justified his actions, but not here. A sign that things are starting to eat away at him.


I only disagree with the last point, Avon never justifies himself, except when he has done a 'good' thing that is,Grin
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Avon is a self-serving character; not a moral one.

But I don't really see the alternative at the end of "Stardrive". He needs to act, and to act quickly to prevent the whole crew from becoming atoms in space. I don't think Dr Plaxton would have sacrificed herself willingly (why would she, she's only just met these people), so giving her the choice wouldn't have worked. Avon did what he had to do. As usual in Season D, the rest of the crew and gutless and just let Avon make all the hard decisions. No wonder he found himself under strain, no matter how self-inflicted after his huge cock-up in Terminal.

Avon acted in the way he had to. I don't have a problem with that. What's far more worrying is his reply to Dayna: a cold "Who?". Once upon a time, Avon would have justified his actions, but not here. A sign that things are starting to eat away at him.


I agree his was the only rational decision that doesn't make it any less morally unpalatable.


No, it makes it a forced choice from unpalatable alternatives, and difficult to make for a sane person, but it doesnt mean that the choice he makes is ambigous and/or morally unpalatable. This is one of the few situations in S4 where it mirrors the earlier series in accepting difficult truths in a reasonably grown up way without scaring the children- which for me is one of the things that defines the first series and the better parts of the next two.
 
Henry Eggleton
peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Avon is a self-serving character; not a moral one.

But I don't really see the alternative at the end of "Stardrive". He needs to act, and to act quickly to prevent the whole crew from becoming atoms in space. I don't think Dr Plaxton would have sacrificed herself willingly (why would she, she's only just met these people), so giving her the choice wouldn't have worked. Avon did what he had to do. As usual in Season D, the rest of the crew and gutless and just let Avon make all the hard decisions. No wonder he found himself under strain, no matter how self-inflicted after his huge cock-up in Terminal.

Avon acted in the way he had to. I don't have a problem with that. What's far more worrying is his reply to Dayna: a cold "Who?". Once upon a time, Avon would have justified his actions, but not here. A sign that things are starting to eat away at him.


I agree his was the only rational decision that doesn't make it any less morally unpalatable.


No, it makes it a forced choice from unpalatable alternatives, and difficult to make for a sane person, but it doesnt mean that the choice he makes is ambigous and/or morally unpalatable. This is one of the few situations in S4 where it mirrors the earlier series in accepting difficult truths in a reasonably grown up way without scaring the children- which for me is one of the things that defines the first series and the better parts of the next two.

That is where we disagree the right choice is not always the moral one
What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
I only disagree with the last point, Avon never justifies himself, except when he has done a 'good' thing that is,Grin


Avon was never the most talkative, that's true. But his "Who?" is so cold and an indication that something has changed.

If "Stardrive" had happened in say Season C (needs a bit of poetic licence to imagine that I guess, since the acquisition of the Star Drive for Scorpio is key to the episode), I feel the exchange would be:

Cally: What about Dr Plaxton?
Avon (slightly dismissive): What else could I have done?

At which point Avon doesn't want to talk about it any more and leaves the Flight Deck.
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Avon is a self-serving character; not a moral one.

But I don't really see the alternative at the end of "Stardrive". He needs to act, and to act quickly to prevent the whole crew from becoming atoms in space. I don't think Dr Plaxton would have sacrificed herself willingly (why would she, she's only just met these people), so giving her the choice wouldn't have worked. Avon did what he had to do. As usual in Season D, the rest of the crew and gutless and just let Avon make all the hard decisions. No wonder he found himself under strain, no matter how self-inflicted after his huge cock-up in Terminal.

Avon acted in the way he had to. I don't have a problem with that. What's far more worrying is his reply to Dayna: a cold "Who?". Once upon a time, Avon would have justified his actions, but not here. A sign that things are starting to eat away at him.


I agree his was the only rational decision that doesn't make it any less morally unpalatable.


No, it makes it a forced choice from unpalatable alternatives, and difficult to make for a sane person, but it doesnt mean that the choice he makes is ambigous and/or morally unpalatable. This is one of the few situations in S4 where it mirrors the earlier series in accepting difficult truths in a reasonably grown up way without scaring the children- which for me is one of the things that defines the first series and the better parts of the next two.


I agree that morals do not come into Avon's decision. He has a very short time in which to act, and makes the only choice that he can see in which the crew survive. They HAVE to outrun those bolts.

If Henry is looking for a morally dubious decision, maybe he should look more at Blake's CHOICE to kill Sara and her conspirators at the end of "Mission To Destiny".

Unlike Avon, Blake does consider himself a moral man - he has to, he's a political figure. And his decision here is on dubious grounds - he becomes judge, jury and executioner.
 
Henry Eggleton
Morals and Avon I again ask is theft moral?
Freedom City Casino con, is that moral.
As to Blake I already said his choice to align with the Terra Nostra the largest drug dealers in the galaxy is hardly moral.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

Avon is a self-serving character; not a moral one.

But I don't really see the alternative at the end of "Stardrive". He needs to act, and to act quickly to prevent the whole crew from becoming atoms in space. I don't think Dr Plaxton would have sacrificed herself willingly (why would she, she's only just met these people), so giving her the choice wouldn't have worked. Avon did what he had to do. As usual in Season D, the rest of the crew and gutless and just let Avon make all the hard decisions. No wonder he found himself under strain, no matter how self-inflicted after his huge cock-up in Terminal.

Avon acted in the way he had to. I don't have a problem with that. What's far more worrying is his reply to Dayna: a cold "Who?". Once upon a time, Avon would have justified his actions, but not here. A sign that things are starting to eat away at him.


I agree his was the only rational decision that doesn't make it any less morally unpalatable.


No, it makes it a forced choice from unpalatable alternatives, and difficult to make for a sane person, but it doesnt mean that the choice he makes is ambigous and/or morally unpalatable. This is one of the few situations in S4 where it mirrors the earlier series in accepting difficult truths in a reasonably grown up way without scaring the children- which for me is one of the things that defines the first series and the better parts of the next two.

That is where we disagree the right choice is not always the moral one


Perhaps, though I struggle to imagine a situation where that is the case, but that cant be true where its the only choice. What would you have had him do if after volunteering to install the Stardrive he told her of the situation, asked her if she was willing to run this specific risk of death rather than the general one she accepted by boarding Scorpio, and she said no? By not asking at least she was absolved of the choice and spared any increase in fear.
 
peladon


I agree that morals do not come into Avon's decision. He has a very short time in which to act, and makes the only choice that he can see in which the crew survive. They HAVE to outrun those bolts.

If Henry is looking for a morally dubious decision, maybe he should look more at Blake's CHOICE to kill Sara and her conspirators at the end of "Mission To Destiny".

Unlike Avon, Blake does consider himself a moral man - he has to, he's a political figure. And his decision here is on dubious grounds - he becomes judge, jury and executioner.


I agree, though he possibly doesnt expect Sara to stay on board the Ortega, and its something that Ive never understood as its OoC for Blake and not really necessary to the plot line. Its wild west justice which doesnt fit with anything else Blake has done up to this point, or even that he does afterwards
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

I agree, though he possibly doesnt expect Sara to stay on board the Ortega, and its something that Ive never understood as its OoC for Blake and not really necessary to the plot line. Its wild west justice which doesnt fit with anything else Blake has done up to this point, or even that he does afterwards


Even if Sara didn't remain onboard, he's still condemning her conspirators to death.

I agree, it is unusual behaviour from Blake. Even the huge errors of judgement he makes sometimes are different to this.

I'm used to Blake being - at times - a bit egotistical, or a bit of a bully, or trying to manipulative things.

But I'm not used to him dishing out his own justice, almost in the style of the Federation that he opposes.
 
Henry Eggleton

Perhaps, though I struggle to imagine a situation where that is the case, but that cant be true where its the only choice. What would you have had him do if after volunteering to install the Stardrive he told her of the situation, asked her if she was willing to run this specific risk of death rather than the general one she accepted by boarding Scorpio, and she said no? By not asking at least she was absolved of the choice and spared any increase in fear.


But morally would have been right, otherwise he condemns her to death to save the ship.
As I said a logical rational choice though not perhaps morally correct.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
Henry Eggleton

Even if Sara didn't remain onboard, he's still condemning her conspirators to death.

I agree, it is unusual behaviour from Blake. Even the huge errors of judgement he makes sometimes are different to this.

I'm used to Blake being - at times - a bit egotistical, or a bit of a bully, or trying to manipulative things.

But I'm not used to him dishing out his own justice, almost in the style of the Federation that he opposes.


A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'
What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:


Perhaps, though I struggle to imagine a situation where that is the case, but that cant be true where its the only choice. What would you have had him do if after volunteering to install the Stardrive he told her of the situation, asked her if she was willing to run this specific risk of death rather than the general one she accepted by boarding Scorpio, and she said no? By not asking at least she was absolved of the choice and spared any increase in fear.


But morally would have been right, otherwise he condemns her to death to save the ship.
As I said a logical rational choice though not perhaps morally correct.


So you are saying that putting her in a position where she either had to say yes, and agrees to kill herself (in your terms) or says no, knowingly condemning the rest of them to death, or forcing him to kill her, is the moral one? That if he had done that Avon would have been behaving more 'morally' then he did, despite the fact that she knew the risks before she went into the engine bay?
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

Morals and Avon I again ask is theft moral?
Freedom City Casino con, is that moral.
As to Blake I already said his choice to align with the Terra Nostra the largest drug dealers in the galaxy is hardly moral.


No theft is not moral. Though it would seem that Avon wasn't a career criminal, as Vila was, and his remarks as to why he did turn to crime could be interpreted in several ways. Not all of them as immoral as others.
 
peladon
Henry Eggleton wrote:

[quote]


A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'


Except that this incident, and Shadow (daft plot) aside he doesnt fit into that category
 
Henry Eggleton
peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

Morals and Avon I again ask is theft moral?
Freedom City Casino con, is that moral.
As to Blake I already said his choice to align with the Terra Nostra the largest drug dealers in the galaxy is hardly moral.


No theft is not moral. Though it would seem that Avon wasn't a career criminal, as Vila was, and his remarks as to why he did turn to crime could be interpreted in several ways. Not all of them as immoral as others.


And the largest theft from the Federation Banking Cartel as well as the con at Freedom City were as far as we can tell purely to become rich.
Thus in asking what Avon did that was immoral we need go no further than the above.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
Henry Eggleton
peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

[quote]


A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'


Except that this incident, and Shadow (daft plot) aside he doesnt fit into that category


It could be argued that in seeking to destroy Star One and thus upset the climate control on over 100 worlds (at least to those inhabitants) as the act of a monster.

What I do I do without choice and to save time
 
http://dcmarvelrpg48705.yuku.com/directory#.UnfVjR
meegat39
trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:
I only disagree with the last point, Avon never justifies himself, except when he has done a 'good' thing that is,Grin


Avon was never the most talkative, that's true. But his "Who?" is so cold and an indication that something has changed.

If "Stardrive" had happened in say Season C (needs a bit of poetic licence to imagine that I guess, since the acquisition of the Star Drive for Scorpio is key to the episode), I feel the exchange would be:

Cally: What about Dr Plaxton?
Avon (slightly dismissive): What else could I have done?

At which point Avon doesn't want to talk about it any more and leaves the Flight Deck.


I agree Trevor Travis, however, here are a few alternatives "she was a necessary sacrifice!"

or "she was expendable".

or how about "would you rather we had ALL died?"

or even "without her sacrifice, we would all be dead right now."
Edited by meegat39 on 02 February 2014 08:55:35
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
trevor travis
meegat39 wrote:

or how about "would you rather we had ALL died?"


That sounds like Avon - killing the conversation, and making sure everyone know he's just saved the day Angry

Meegat, I think we've discussed this before... in a pub somewhere between Goth and Star One Grin

I think we agreed that the deterioration of Avon makes fascintaing if slightly uncomfortable viewing. It's not often that a TV series will show the "hero" coming under such stress and starting to lose his grip (I won't say sanity, because Avon is not mad by "Blake", just in need of a psychotherapist).

Sacrificing Dr Plaxton is something Avon would have done, whatever point of B7. It's the logical decision. But his cold "Who?" comment is something specific to Season D.
 
Lorna
Yes it is the "who" that makes it such uncomfortable viewing!!Shock
 
trevor travis
Henry Eggleton wrote:

peladon wrote:

Henry Eggleton wrote:

[quote]


A case of 'if you fight monsters long enough you become a monster'


Except that this incident, and Shadow (daft plot) aside he doesnt fit into that category


It could be argued that in seeking to destroy Star One and thus upset the climate control on over 100 worlds (at least to those inhabitants) as the act of a monster.


Henry, whether Blake's potential actions in "Star One" can be defended or not is a far bigger discussion, that deserves a thread all of its own... in the Duel section Grin
 
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