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Terminal vs Blake
peladon
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

sweevo wrote:

Which episode served as the better series finale? The original ending (Terminal) or the infamous final chapter of the saga (Blake)? Votes and opinions, please.

Truly, my answer in this poll had the option been available would have been 'neither' since I'm not in favour of either episode! The show had many strengths, but imo ending each season well was not really one of them. The plot mechanism of Terminal depends too much on stupidity and contrivance while Blake, at the risk of provoking another circular debate about the episode's merits, is just a huge let down on every score for me. The best finale in Blake's 7 imo is Star One...


I wouldnt say that Terminal depends on stupidity, on misplaced loyalty perhaps. That and the one miscalculation that Avon makes, probably from fatigue. Blake on the other had requires an assumption that everyone has forgotten everything that has kept them alive for the last how ever many years.

SO doesnt work for me because it is nearly as daft a plot as Blake and the dialogue is truly cringemaking in several places. Nope has to be Terminal.
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:

trevor travis wrote:


Peladon, the "war" we see on screen seems to consist of one single battle that takes place out by Star One/Sarran/Chenga. Maybe there were secondary battles from the odd alien ship that escaped (Volcano and COA seem to suggest there was), but there seems little opportunity for the aliens to destroy the Federation's ability to destroy ships.

As early as Harvest, Jarvik is given three brand new Mark 10 pursuit ships.

The Federation is already well on its way to recovery by the fifth episode of Season C...


We dont see 80% of the Fed fleet destroyed - but we are told it happens - so its canon. they are left with less than a third of their operating capability.We are told that the war raged over many sectors in Volcano (so its canon) and there is a suggestion of drifting debris in Children of Auron( suggesting widespread damage). We are 'told' that Blake has won - the Federation is finished as it was ,at the start of series C. Its is neither logical, nor feasible, that in maybe two yers any significant change could be made in that.

As for what is being produced, I doubt the aliens got to the inner worlds so any ship yards there would be functioning - however materials, spares, skills etc would be at a premium and so its not going to be much of a production line anf at the same time everyone else is doing the same. its clear that Servalan doesn't want to give Jarvik the ships but feels she will risk them in the pursuit of the one chance of rebuilding - Liberator technology. 3 new pursuit ships wouldnt go far acros even the inner worlds (assuming thats the solar system) let alone in the woder context of pre war Fed controlled space, even added to what remained (and those are not likely to be the front line fighting ships). At the end of Series C we are being reminded that the Federation is finished and shown that Servalan is still desperate for Liberator technology and Orac. So in my opinion taking all the canon indicators together (and not just an odd line here and there in inconsistently structured episodes,) it is not clear that it is recovering by the middle of series c. But I do realise that is harder to accept for series D lovers.


Peladon, fair enough, so we're taking everything we are told as canon. In which case, that includes everything, not just the bits you want to pick and choose.

So the Federation is well on its way to recovery in "Ultraworld", despite the setbacks earlier in the season.

Plus there's the clear fact that in Season D, which is also canon, the Federation clearly has recovered.
 
peladon
trevor travis wrote:

peladon wrote:

trevor travis wrote:


Peladon, the "war" we see on screen seems to consist of one single battle that takes place out by Star One/Sarran/Chenga. Maybe there were secondary battles from the odd alien ship that escaped (Volcano and COA seem to suggest there was), but there seems little opportunity for the aliens to destroy the Federation's ability to destroy ships.

As early as Harvest, Jarvik is given three brand new Mark 10 pursuit ships.

The Federation is already well on its way to recovery by the fifth episode of Season C...


We dont see 80% of the Fed fleet destroyed - but we are told it happens - so its canon. they are left with less than a third of their operating capability.We are told that the war raged over many sectors in Volcano (so its canon) and there is a suggestion of drifting debris in Children of Auron( suggesting widespread damage). We are 'told' that Blake has won - the Federation is finished as it was ,at the start of series C. Its is neither logical, nor feasible, that in maybe two yers any significant change could be made in that.

As for what is being produced, I doubt the aliens got to the inner worlds so any ship yards there would be functioning - however materials, spares, skills etc would be at a premium and so its not going to be much of a production line anf at the same time everyone else is doing the same. its clear that Servalan doesn't want to give Jarvik the ships but feels she will risk them in the pursuit of the one chance of rebuilding - Liberator technology. 3 new pursuit ships wouldnt go far acros even the inner worlds (assuming thats the solar system) let alone in the woder context of pre war Fed controlled space, even added to what remained (and those are not likely to be the front line fighting ships). At the end of Series C we are being reminded that the Federation is finished and shown that Servalan is still desperate for Liberator technology and Orac. So in my opinion taking all the canon indicators together (and not just an odd line here and there in inconsistently structured episodes,) it is not clear that it is recovering by the middle of series c. But I do realise that is harder to accept for series D lovers.


Peladon, fair enough, so we're taking everything we are told as canon. In which case, that includes everything, not just the bits you want to pick and choose.

So the Federation is well on its way to recovery in "Ultraworld", despite the setbacks earlier in the season.


Plus there's the clear fact that in Season D, which is also canon, the Federation clearly has recovered.



80% destruction of your main source of power is not a 'setback' it is destruction and near obliteration given the scale of the distances.

Canon is the balance of everything on screen, not just random individual lines of dialogue here and there.Now had the editing been up to scratch that would not present difficulties, as it wasnt it does. As a writer (and an analyist ) I take the balance of all evidence, and therefore I take the position that it isint recovering but that Tarrant doesnt actually undertsand and Avon cant be bothered to explain the real situation to him. In SD the canon is less inconsistent and is one of a recovering Federation - didnt say it wasnt - but that position is naive, inconceivable from what has gone before and requires significant and unrealistic suspension of belief from an intelligent person - or as I preferred to describe it - barking
 
trevor travis
peladon wrote:
Canon is the balance of everything on screen, not just random individual lines of dialogue here and there.Now had the editing been up to scratch that would not present difficulties, as it wasnt it does. As a writer (and an analyist ) I take the balance of all evidence, and therefore I take the position that it isint recovering but that Tarrant doesnt actually undertsand and Avon cant be bothered to explain the real situation to him. In SD the canon is less inconsistent and is one of a recovering Federation - didnt say it wasnt - but that position is naive, inconceivable from what has gone before and requires significant and unrealistic suspension of belief from an intelligent person - or as I preferred to describe it - barking


Canon isn't the balance of everything on screen - it is everything on screen. If it contradicts itself, that's for us to work out how the contradictions fit in. Wink

As for Derek being a bit barking, I like that description of it Grin That's one reason I like it so much. The gloves are off. Avon is stressed out and making mistakes, while the Federation, which at least pretended to be a democracy before the war, has now become even monstrous.

Everything is barking and unpredictable. And fascinating.
 
JustBrad
trevor travis wrote:


Canon isn't the balance of everything on screen - it is everything on screen. If it contradicts itself, that's for us to work out how the contradictions fit in. Wink



That definition has certainly kept Star Wars fans busy for decades. Pfft
 
Travisina
JustBrad wrote:

trevor travis wrote:


Canon isn't the balance of everything on screen - it is everything on screen. If it contradicts itself, that's for us to work out how the contradictions fit in. Wink



That definition has certainly kept Star Wars fans busy for decades. Pfft

Tell me again who shot first, and how Parsecs became a unit of speed? Pfft
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
JustBrad
Travisina wrote:

JustBrad wrote:


That definition has certainly kept Star Wars fans busy for decades. Pfft

Tell me again who shot first, and how Parsecs became a unit of speed? Pfft


Those are easy, tell me how Leia remembers her mother being sad, when Padme died five minutes after Leia was born....

Tell me how Darth Vader never figured out the Emperor was lying (about Vader having killed a pregnant Padme), while Vader is spending all of Empire and Jedi tracking down the son Padme was pregnant with when Vader allegedly killed her.... *

Compared to that, the plot contradictions of B7 are insignificant.
Edited by JustBrad on 15 August 2015 15:53:59
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
JustBrad wrote:

Tell me how Darth Vader never figured out the Emperor was lying (about Vader having killed a pregnant Padme), while Vader is spending all of Empire and Jedi tracking down the son Padme was pregnant with when Vader allegedly killed her.... *

Compared to that, the plot contradictions of B7 are insignificant.

This is the story that George Lucas allegedly had planned out in fine detail before the first camera ever turned, because he always intended it to be a six film series that started in the middle?*

*a claim that imo requires almost as much suspension of disbelief as the films themselves...
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Travisina
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

JustBrad wrote:

Tell me how Darth Vader never figured out the Emperor was lying (about Vader having killed a pregnant Padme), while Vader is spending all of Empire and Jedi tracking down the son Padme was pregnant with when Vader allegedly killed her.... *

Compared to that, the plot contradictions of B7 are insignificant.

This is the story that George Lucas allegedly had planned out in fine detail before the first camera ever turned, because he always intended it to be a six film series that started in the middle?*

*a claim that imo requires almost as much suspension of disbelief as the films themselves...

Hence the reason the first movie was called Episode IV.

That said, I am quite prepared to consider Eps 1-3 as non-canon. There, fixed it for you, Brad! Wink
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
Travisina wrote:

Hence the reason the first movie was called Episode IV.

Something that imo was a creative decision, because it caught viewers attention and gave the feel of a story that was already epic for the characters, not evidence that the prequel trilogy was already written before 1977

In connection with the original topic, it's like suggesting that Terry Nation and Chris Boucher got together and wrote Blake before Terry wrote The Way Back.
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
trevor travis
Oh my goodness, what have I started? Grin But yes, everything within Episodes 1-6 of Star Wars has to fit into a single canon Wink
 
Spaceship Dispatcher
trevor travis wrote:

...But yes, everything within Episodes 1-6 of Star Wars has to fit into a single canon Wink

And that's before the new Disney films come out, at least the first of which is actually original cast... Oops
Reversing the polarity of the neutron flow. I bet that means something. It sounds great.

Blake's 7: Trojan Horse (s4 fanfic) - Blake's 7: Through the Needle's Eye (s2 fanfic)

Spaceship Dispatcher's fanfic site
 
Travisina
Spaceship Dispatcher wrote:

Travisina wrote:

Hence the reason the first movie was called Episode IV.

Something that imo was a creative decision, because it caught viewers attention and gave the feel of a story that was already epic for the characters, not evidence that the prequel trilogy was already written before 1977

The plan that there would be 9 episodes, of which the first film was Ep 4, was already mentioned in Time and Newsweek articles when 'Star Wars' first came out. I was there, I read them!
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Travisina
trevor travis wrote:

Oh my goodness, what have I started? Grin But yes, everything within Episodes 1-6 of Star Wars has to fit into a single canon Wink

But it doesn't, that's the problem. And as Eps1-3 are pretty ropey, I prefer not to think of them at all Angry
Twitter: @TravisinaB7
Tumblr: tumblr
There's no point being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes
 
Anniew
Trevor
As for Derek being a bit barking, I like that description of it Grin That's one reason I like it so much. The gloves are off. Avon is stressed out and making mistakes, while the Federation, which at least pretended to be a democracy before the war, has now become even monstrous.

Everything is barking and unpredictable. And fascinating.


Trevor I soo agree with you about Derek. I also agree that everything we see on screen in any series has to be made to fit somehow into a coherent view. Obviously, in reality, some of the patterns that emerge are happenstances and some confusions arise because of poor editing, but we, the fans, have to make it fit somehow ( find explanations etc) and contribute to it within the perimeters established. We can add to it ( give Avon a sister for example) but not ignore what we are told ( we can't say he's an only child for example, because we know he has a brother).
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
JustBrad
Travisina wrote:


And as Eps1-3 are pretty ropey, I prefer not to think of them at all Angry


Where is the 'Like' button?
 
meegat39
I think we should rechristen Season Derek as Season Barking. Oh, please can we please?!! GrinGrinWink
"If you didn't want the answer, you shouldn't have asked the question."
 
Candlelight
As a finale, Terminal leaves too much unanswered. Blake is final and definite. There is no coming back. Terminal is still a more enjoyable episode but Blake has the undeniable shock factor that still has people talking about it after 35 years.
"Regret is part of being alive"
 
peladon
Candlelight wrote:

As a finale, Terminal leaves too much unanswered. Blake is final and definite. There is no coming back. Terminal is still a more enjoyable episode but Blake has the undeniable shock factor that still has people talking about it after 35 years.


I'd disagree, Terminal is written as an end and the ending is ironic and a balance of probabilities. Servalan is dead as a result of her pursuit of power and the ship she hoped to use to hold power is gone beyond anyone reach. The Federation is in decline and will almost certainly wither (as history shows such empires always do) and there is no certainty about what will replace it. Blake has in effect seen his war won and is himself dead, something that I think he would have accepted and is probably the best outcome for him.Avon and Vila are pretty much where they would have been if they hadnt met Blake, as is Cally. Dayna is also pretty much restored to her starting position. Tarrant is grounded but he is alive and as free as he was ever likely to be.

The only unanswered question is what will happen to/on Terminal now - which is where the fans would have voyaged has the final series never been produced.
 
Anniew
Ah interesting Peoadon. Yes I suppose Avon and Vila stranded on Terminal is little different to their being stranded on Cygnus Alpha and since at that point there is no evidence that Servalan has mined the base and the ship they have some technology which might enable Avon to mend Orac or get the old ship working. ( and Links are preferable to Vargas). Dayna is back on a primitive planet, Cally is alive.
I've just read Peter Anghelides' Blake and it highlights gets just how many questions that episode poses. Like how could the Federation sanction Blake as a bounty hunter unless he'd persuaded them he'd changed sides? What was Avon expecting? He seems to have limited but particular information about Blake's operation but why didn't Orac warn him about the blockade? Why was Blake expecting Avon? ( I know you've posed these questions and more Pelladon). I like the episode ( can still remember how I felt when I watched it) but it certainly, for me, doesn't leave me without a hell of a lot of questions.
Just because I can't sing doesn't mean I won't.
 
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