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Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

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Let's Diagnose our Heroes
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait


Avon's bark is frequently worse than his bite. What he says and does are two different things.

Again, there's nothing unusual about that.


If Avon's behaviour would have been even remotely in the realm of normal, he would have been normal in Space Fall.
We are talking about the guy who was perfectly willing to aid the London's crew into dumping all of the other prisoners into space.


You've got that scene very wrong. Avon never says any such thing. It's an assumption of the others. Vila goes as far as suggesting they should kill Avon.

It's a scene that suggests Vila is a darker character than he likes to let on most of the time. Vila is no innocent, but again he's just an ordinary guy reacting to extraordinary circumstances.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink


you may have a different idea of a "human being" than me.


I think very few human beings as "saints". We all have our little quirks and faults.

Avon is a highly intelligent man in some ways; a complete fool in others. That's not that unusual.

Maybe it's because TV is so sanitized that when a TV programme comes along with 'real characters' that we want to pigeon-hole them as suffering from various conditions when actually they are characters behaving in relatively normal ways to extraordinary circumstances.


First, there is no such thing as normality. People tend to perceive normality as something close to them and invest a lot in that sort of stance because it helps them cope.

You think "willing to aid in the killing of a dozen or so people" is a normal human trait? intriguing.
Especially since, again, mental health issues are a vastly correlated comorbidity of High IQ.
As in, someone with Avon's IQ was very unlikely to be in any way psychologically normal, which his behaviour proves.
Your arguments are basically that he is not entirely unhuman because he has some slight affinities with others, but that isn't the argument.

Darrow himself admits that he believed Avon would have never agreed to bring two unknown people on the ship, but that was a ploy to extend the series. As in he had to play Avon less dark than he saw him in order to keep the show going.
Which basically means your arguments are based on out of character actions that Darrow believed Avon wouldn't actually do.

"What do you think Avon thought of the rest of the crew?
PAUL: Generally speaking, I think that Avon was a loner, but was forced to have somebody fly the plane when he wasn't there—the plane, I mean the spaceship—and also to cook the dinner and make the tea or whatever, and do his ironing, if you like. No, they had their functions, and as long as they performed their functions, he tolerated them. But if they didn't, he'd kill them."

None of the above falls anywhere within normal human psychology. You are free to believe whatever you please, but I find that you aren't making a good argument so let's stop here
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait


Avon's bark is frequently worse than his bite. What he says and does are two different things.

Again, there's nothing unusual about that.


If Avon's behaviour would have been even remotely in the realm of normal, he would have been normal in Space Fall.
We are talking about the guy who was perfectly willing to aid the London's crew into dumping all of the other prisoners into space.


You've got that scene very wrong. Avon never says any such thing. It's an assumption of the others. Vila goes as far as suggesting they should kill Avon.

It's a scene that suggests Vila is a darker character than he likes to let on most of the time. Vila is no innocent, but again he's just an ordinary guy reacting to extraordinary circumstances.


Blake asked him later, and Avon nodded.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink


you may have a different idea of a "human being" than me.


I think very few human beings as "saints". We all have our little quirks and faults.

Avon is a highly intelligent man in some ways; a complete fool in others. That's not that unusual.

Maybe it's because TV is so sanitized that when a TV programme comes along with 'real characters' that we want to pigeon-hole them as suffering from various conditions when actually they are characters behaving in relatively normal ways to extraordinary circumstances.


First, there is no such thing as normality. People tend to perceive normality as something close to them and invest a lot in that sort of stance because it helps them cope.

You think "willing to aid in the killing of a dozen or so people" is a normal human trait? intriguing.
Especially since, again, mental health issues are a vastly correlated comorbidity of High IQ.
As in, someone with Avon's IQ was very unlikely to be in any way psychologically normal, which his behaviour proves.
Your arguments are basically that he is not entirely unhuman because he has some slight affinities with others, but that isn't the argument.

Darrow himself admits that he believed Avon would have never agreed to bring two unknown people on the ship, but that was a ploy to extend the series. As in he had to play Avon less dark than he saw him in order to keep the show going.
Which basically means your arguments are based on out of character actions that Darrow believed Avon wouldn't actually do.

"What do you think Avon thought of the rest of the crew?
PAUL: Generally speaking, I think that Avon was a loner, but was forced to have somebody fly the plane when he wasn't there—the plane, I mean the spaceship—and also to cook the dinner and make the tea or whatever, and do his ironing, if you like. No, they had their functions, and as long as they performed their functions, he tolerated them. But if they didn't, he'd kill them."

None of the above falls anywhere within normal human psychology. You are free to believe whatever you please, but I find that you aren't making a good argument so let's stop here


Paul's books have demonstrated that his grasp on Avon isn't quite as good as some of the writers. He sees Avon as Dirty Harry, but Avon was never written in this way within the series.

Avon doesn't kill anyone without a good reason. For example, Dr Plaxton. What else was Avon supposed to do? Let everyone die? Because that seemed to be the only alternative. His reaction is cold, but again it's a sign of stress, of being forced to take all the hard decisions.

Avon doesn't kill without reason. Servalan on the other hand...
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink


you may have a different idea of a "human being" than me.


I think very few human beings as "saints". We all have our little quirks and faults.

Avon is a highly intelligent man in some ways; a complete fool in others. That's not that unusual.

Maybe it's because TV is so sanitized that when a TV programme comes along with 'real characters' that we want to pigeon-hole them as suffering from various conditions when actually they are characters behaving in relatively normal ways to extraordinary circumstances.


First, there is no such thing as normality. People tend to perceive normality as something close to them and invest a lot in that sort of stance because it helps them cope.

You think "willing to aid in the killing of a dozen or so people" is a normal human trait? intriguing.
Especially since, again, mental health issues are a vastly correlated comorbidity of High IQ.
As in, someone with Avon's IQ was very unlikely to be in any way psychologically normal, which his behaviour proves.
Your arguments are basically that he is not entirely unhuman because he has some slight affinities with others, but that isn't the argument.

Darrow himself admits that he believed Avon would have never agreed to bring two unknown people on the ship, but that was a ploy to extend the series. As in he had to play Avon less dark than he saw him in order to keep the show going.
Which basically means your arguments are based on out of character actions that Darrow believed Avon wouldn't actually do.

"What do you think Avon thought of the rest of the crew?
PAUL: Generally speaking, I think that Avon was a loner, but was forced to have somebody fly the plane when he wasn't there—the plane, I mean the spaceship—and also to cook the dinner and make the tea or whatever, and do his ironing, if you like. No, they had their functions, and as long as they performed their functions, he tolerated them. But if they didn't, he'd kill them."

None of the above falls anywhere within normal human psychology. You are free to believe whatever you please, but I find that you aren't making a good argument so let's stop here


Paul's books have demonstrated that his grasp on Avon isn't quite as good as some of the writers. He sees Avon as Dirty Harry, but Avon was never written in this way within the series.

Avon doesn't kill anyone without a good reason. For example, Dr Plaxton. What else was Avon supposed to do? Let everyone die? Because that seemed to be the only alternative. His reaction is cold, but again it's a sign of stress, of being forced to take all the hard decisions.

Avon doesn't kill without reason. Servalan on the other hand...


I think Paul's view of Avon is the only one that's valid because he knows him best, and we know that he had quite a bit of input into how the character evolved. A case can be made that he ran with Avon and th writers and the audience liked it so much they followed. Pretty sure nobody meant for the show to become Avon's 7 but by Gambit Blake was no longer the main character of it.

The death of Dr Plaxton proves my point, because not only he killed her, which can be construed as a necessity, but he doesn't perceive her as being something that's worth even remembering after she outlived her utility.
That is even worse. Not the killing, the "who".
This is murder in cold blood. Premeditated. And the crew knows it.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
The death of Dr Plaxton proves my point, because not only he killed her, which can be construed as a necessity, but he doesn't perceive her as being something that's worth even remembering after she outlived her utility.
That is even worse. Not the killing, the "who".
This is murder in cold blood. Premeditated. And the crew knows it.


How it's premeditated?

He was responding to circumstances and had no choice. What was the alternative?

His reaction was a sign that the stress is getting to him, but 'premeditated murder'? How did you work that one out?
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
The death of Dr Plaxton proves my point, because not only he killed her, which can be construed as a necessity, but he doesn't perceive her as being something that's worth even remembering after she outlived her utility.
That is even worse. Not the killing, the "who".
This is murder in cold blood. Premeditated. And the crew knows it.


How it's premeditated?

He was responding to circumstances and had no choice. What was the alternative?

His reaction was a sign that the stress is getting to him, but 'premeditated murder'? How did you work that one out?

it's quite obvious, he planned to go the second the connections were made and he timed it accordingly. He KNEW that there won't be enough time for Plaxton to get out of there, Dayna makes it clear, and he just goes ahead with it, willingly using Plaxton and convicting her to death.
This isn't a heat of the moment "it happened" crime. he sat there for x minutes knowing he'd kill her the minute she did what she had to, and he is entirely OK with it. He programmed the engine to start immediately. He never had the slightest intention to let her live.
THis is obvious in the crew's reaction: they know.

Normal human beings do not murder casually. It's the reason so many veterans kill themselves. We aren't wired like that.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
The death of Dr Plaxton proves my point, because not only he killed her, which can be construed as a necessity, but he doesn't perceive her as being something that's worth even remembering after she outlived her utility.
That is even worse. Not the killing, the "who".
This is murder in cold blood. Premeditated. And the crew knows it.


How it's premeditated?

He was responding to circumstances and had no choice. What was the alternative?

His reaction was a sign that the stress is getting to him, but 'premeditated murder'? How did you work that one out?

it's quite obvious, he planned to go the second the connections were made and he timed it accordingly. He KNEW that there won't be enough time for Plaxton to get out of there, Dayna makes it clear, and he just goes ahead with it, willingly using Plaxton and convicting her to death.
This isn't a heat of the moment "it happened" crime. he sat there for x minutes knowing he'd kill her the minute she did what she had to, and he is entirely OK with it. He programmed the engine to start immediately. He never had the slightest intention to let her live.
THis is obvious in the crew's reaction: they know.


Avon only programmes in the drive with less than 30 seconds before everyone dies:

TARRANT They're in range!
AVON Time is up, Doctor.
PLAXTON [V.O., over intercom] Almost done.
VILA Plasma bolt fired.
SOOLIN Thirty seconds to impact.
PLAXTON [V.O.] One more connection to-- [Her voice is cut off as Avon pushes some buttons.]
TARRANT [To Avon] What are you doing?
AVON Programing in the main circuit drive.
DAYNA You can't do that. That main drive will fire as soon as she makes the final connection.
SOOLIN Fifteen seconds.
AVON We can outrun that bolt. She's dead either way.



I'll ask again: what was the alternative?

I can see two options:
1. Dr Plaxton dies
2. Everyone dies.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
The death of Dr Plaxton proves my point, because not only he killed her, which can be construed as a necessity, but he doesn't perceive her as being something that's worth even remembering after she outlived her utility.
That is even worse. Not the killing, the "who".
This is murder in cold blood. Premeditated. And the crew knows it.


How it's premeditated?

He was responding to circumstances and had no choice. What was the alternative?

His reaction was a sign that the stress is getting to him, but 'premeditated murder'? How did you work that one out?

it's quite obvious, he planned to go the second the connections were made and he timed it accordingly. He KNEW that there won't be enough time for Plaxton to get out of there, Dayna makes it clear, and he just goes ahead with it, willingly using Plaxton and convicting her to death.
This isn't a heat of the moment "it happened" crime. he sat there for x minutes knowing he'd kill her the minute she did what she had to, and he is entirely OK with it. He programmed the engine to start immediately. He never had the slightest intention to let her live.
THis is obvious in the crew's reaction: they know.


Avon only programmes in the drive with less than 30 seconds before everyone dies:

TARRANT They're in range!
AVON Time is up, Doctor.
PLAXTON [V.O., over intercom] Almost done.
VILA Plasma bolt fired.
SOOLIN Thirty seconds to impact.
PLAXTON [V.O.] One more connection to-- [Her voice is cut off as Avon pushes some buttons.]
TARRANT [To Avon] What are you doing?
AVON Programing in the main circuit drive.
DAYNA You can't do that. That main drive will fire as soon as she makes the final connection.
SOOLIN Fifteen seconds.
AVON We can outrun that bolt. She's dead either way.



I'll ask again: what was the alternative?

I can see two options:
1. Dr Plaxton dies
2. Everyone dies.


but he knew there won't be enough time because Dayna says it when things start.
There was no intention whatsoever to actually let Plaxton get out. THis is actually the point because we know Avon is capable of a certain amount of care towards his crew, if nothign else because he needs them to run the ship.

At no point does he express any concern for Dr Plaxton's escape- he wasn't even acknowledging her as enough of a human being to matter. he shows no regret, there's not even one moment of feeling bad about it.
He used her for the star drive and that's it. he never shows one bit of remorse or anything. The clue is at the end
"who?"
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

but he knew there won't be enough time because Dayna says it when things start.
There was no intention whatsoever to actually let Plaxton get out. THis is actually the point because we know Avon is capable of a certain amount of care towards his crew, if nothign else because he needs them to run the ship.

At no point does he express any concern for Dr Plaxton's escape- he wasn't even acknowledging her as enough of a human being to matter. he shows no regret, there's not even one moment of feeling bad about it.
He used her for the star drive and that's it. he never shows one bit of remorse or anything. The clue is at the end
"who?"


I've watched the episode relatively recently.

And Avon tells Dr Plaxton exactly how long she has and is hurrying her along.

Why would he want to kill her? She has extremely useful skills. He wanted her alive. He only took the decision AFTER the Plasma Bolt was launched.

His denial is shocking and a sign that the stress was starting to get to him. But one thing it wasn't was pre-meditated murder.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

but he knew there won't be enough time because Dayna says it when things start.
There was no intention whatsoever to actually let Plaxton get out. THis is actually the point because we know Avon is capable of a certain amount of care towards his crew, if nothign else because he needs them to run the ship.

At no point does he express any concern for Dr Plaxton's escape- he wasn't even acknowledging her as enough of a human being to matter. he shows no regret, there's not even one moment of feeling bad about it.
He used her for the star drive and that's it. he never shows one bit of remorse or anything. The clue is at the end
"who?"


I've watched the episode relatively recently.

And Avon tells Dr Plaxton exactly how long she has and is hurrying her along.

Why would he want to kill her? She has extremely useful skills. He wanted her alive. He only took the decision AFTER the Plasma Bolt was launched.

His denial is shocking and a sign that the stress was starting to get to him. But one thing it wasn't was pre-meditated murder.


It was obvious it wasn't going to happen in time.
he didn't want to kill her because he disliked her. That's what you aren't getting, maybe I am not putting this across correctly. he calculates what he's getting out of this- dr Plaxton is only valuable in the context of the Stardrive. Between her life and the engine with its present and future benefits he has to choose the engine because that is the biggest gain he can make out of the situation.
Plus, alive she'd have been another person Avon had to look after, and he already had the responsibility for the lives of a bunch of people he didn't really like having around anyway.

Also, he didn't NEED an engineer because he already has one. Keeping her around is not actually necessary.

Avon is not someone who falls under stress. he makes it very clear from the beginning he was only in it for his self interest. he doesn't even regard himself as human.
Which is the whole point I am trying to make.

Avon is not a fallen man because he doesn't have much in way of morals.While "Avon, A terrible Aspect" is not canon per se, it gives a good idea as to how Avon got to where he was.
Morals were a luxury h didn't have, which is why he outlived all of the moral characters.
Edited by sooper mouse on 19 November 2016 01:50:17
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
he didn't want to kill her because he disliked her. That's what you aren't getting, maybe I am not putting this across correctly. he calculates what he's getting out of this- dr Plaxton is only valuable in the context of the Stardrive. Between her life and the engine with its present and future benefits he has to choose the engine because that is the biggest gain he can make out of the situation.
Plus, alive she'd have been another person Avon had to look after, and he already had the responsibility for the lives of a bunch of people he didn't really like having around anyway.


It's touch and go whether there is enough time. It's certainly not clear cut. Avon gave her every second that he could. It's not as if he programmed in the engines with 10 or 5 or even 1 minute to go. He only did AFTER the Plasma Bolt was launched.

There really wasn't an alternative.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
he didn't want to kill her because he disliked her. That's what you aren't getting, maybe I am not putting this across correctly. he calculates what he's getting out of this- dr Plaxton is only valuable in the context of the Stardrive. Between her life and the engine with its present and future benefits he has to choose the engine because that is the biggest gain he can make out of the situation.
Plus, alive she'd have been another person Avon had to look after, and he already had the responsibility for the lives of a bunch of people he didn't really like having around anyway.


It's touch and go whether there is enough time. It's certainly not clear cut. Avon gave her every second that he could. It's not as if he programmed in the engines with 10 or 5 or even 1 minute to go. He only did AFTER the Plasma Bolt was launched.

There really wasn't an alternative.


There are always alternatives.
the issue of how she'd get out is never even discussed, which is unlikely for Avon, known to plan things carefully.
And considering how he spends the first part establishing he need to upgrade the Scorpio...
"Good enough, at least now we can outrun the opposition. That should make you happy" is not the reaction of a normal human after he just had to kill someone.
Edited by sooper mouse on 19 November 2016 01:39:01
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
the issue of how she'd get out is never even discussed, which is unlikely for Avon, known to plan things carefully.


She gets back out the way she came in!

Had she completed the final connection 30 seconds earlier, or the Pursuit Ships taken another 30 seconds before launching their Plasma Bolts, she would have lived! Avon gave her every second he could.

Avon, plan things? Have you watched Terminal recently? Grin Grin
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
the issue of how she'd get out is never even discussed, which is unlikely for Avon, known to plan things carefully.


She gets back out the way she came in!

Had she completed the final connection 30 seconds earlier, or the Pursuit Ships taken another 30 seconds before launching their Plasma Bolts, she would have lived! Avon gave her every second he could.

Avon, plan things? Have you watched Terminal recently? Grin Grin


he did plan things. He set the Liberator to leave if things went wrong, and made sure nobody else's life but his would be risked. That IS planning. he planned what could be planned and only exposed himself to the unknown. OK going through the goo was a bad idea, but that's not the point.

If Plaxton's life mattered even a little bit he'd have stayed there with her, maybe helped her? He is an engineer after all. If both of them worked on it the thing would have been done faster. The fact that he didn't shows he didn't regard her life as important.

That being said, it's funny how you need Tarrant and Vila to carry the drive in, but once inside Avon, the smallest of the group, can carry it just fine alone.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
the issue of how she'd get out is never even discussed, which is unlikely for Avon, known to plan things carefully.


She gets back out the way she came in!

Had she completed the final connection 30 seconds earlier, or the Pursuit Ships taken another 30 seconds before launching their Plasma Bolts, she would have lived! Avon gave her every second he could.

Avon, plan things? Have you watched Terminal recently? Grin Grin


he did plan things. He set the Liberator to leave if things went wrong, and made sure nobody else's life but his would be risked. That IS planning. he planned what could be planned and only exposed himself to the unknown. OK going through the goo was a bad idea, but that's not the point.

If Plaxton's life mattered even a little bit he'd have stayed there with her, maybe helped her? He is an engineer after all. If both of them worked on it the thing would have been done faster. The fact that he didn't shows he didn't regard her life as important.

That being said, it's funny how you need Tarrant and Vila to carry the drive in, but once inside Avon, the smallest of the group, can carry it just fine alone.


Yes, but the plan in Terminal is utterly daft and must have taken a whole two minutes to work out Grin

Blake is an engineer. Avon is the computer expert. A subtle difference, but a difference. The Stardrive is a pretty specialist piece of equipment - I guess Avon reasoned 'helping out' Dr Plaxton would have simply slowed her down. Maybe that was a mistake, and it would have been quicker if he'd have helped out. After all, had Dr Plaxton been a few seconds slower in completing the final connection, they would have all died. It's not if Avon is sat on the Flight Deck in a safe position. Anything but.

At the end of the episode, his options have run out. He didn't want to kill Dr Plaxton, but there's no choice.

Avon makes mistakes. Even more than Blake did. Everything he criticised Blake for, he was guilty himself of.

But I can't see how making a hash of things and getting stressed out about it makes him anything but a 'normal' human being.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
the issue of how she'd get out is never even discussed, which is unlikely for Avon, known to plan things carefully.


She gets back out the way she came in!

Had she completed the final connection 30 seconds earlier, or the Pursuit Ships taken another 30 seconds before launching their Plasma Bolts, she would have lived! Avon gave her every second he could.

Avon, plan things? Have you watched Terminal recently? Grin Grin


he did plan things. He set the Liberator to leave if things went wrong, and made sure nobody else's life but his would be risked. That IS planning. he planned what could be planned and only exposed himself to the unknown. OK going through the goo was a bad idea, but that's not the point.

If Plaxton's life mattered even a little bit he'd have stayed there with her, maybe helped her? He is an engineer after all. If both of them worked on it the thing would have been done faster. The fact that he didn't shows he didn't regard her life as important.

That being said, it's funny how you need Tarrant and Vila to carry the drive in, but once inside Avon, the smallest of the group, can carry it just fine alone.


Yes, but the plan in Terminal is utterly daft and must have taken a whole two minutes to work out Grin

Blake is an engineer. Avon is the computer expert. A subtle difference, but a difference. The Stardrive is a pretty specialist piece of equipment - I guess Avon reasoned 'helping out' Dr Plaxton would have simply slowed her down. Maybe that was a mistake, and it would have been quicker if he'd have helped out. After all, had Dr Plaxton been a few seconds slower in completing the final connection, they would have all died. It's not if Avon is sat on the Flight Deck in a safe position. Anything but.

At the end of the episode, his options have run out. He didn't want to kill Dr Plaxton, but there's no choice.

Avon makes mistakes. Even more than Blake did. Everything he criticised Blake for, he was guilty himself of.

But I can't see how making a hash of things and getting stressed out about it makes him anything but a 'normal' human being.

1. The plan is only daft with 20/20 vision. From his own point of view he planned it to the best of his ability based on available data. There was little available data so he chose to satisfy his curiosity in a way that wasn't meant to endanger the lives of the rest of the crew, in which he shows a lot more consideration than Blake ever did. Cally only died because the crew are too stupid to actually obey his directions, and Cally is a rather stupid character.
2.The two fields actually have quite a bit of overlapping, and we see Avon working on enough hardware thorough the series to be rather certain he has at least a working knowledge of engineering. Believe it or not, making connections is not a terribly advanced skill, and Avon is seen at several points in the series doing tasks more complex than that. The task would have put no difficulty to him.
3. Actually he is significantly safer on the flight deck than Dr Plaxton is at the engines, at least until they get hit. It is also a deeply uncharacteristic move for him to leave her alone in there, unless he never planned on her coming out. Avon had been betrayed too many times in the past to have that level of trust. The only thing that makes sense in him returning to the deck instead of staying with her is that her safety was not a relevant thing to him.
5. He does make mistakes, but he also happens to get a lot less people killed than Blake has.
6. You don't actually have to be sympathetic to him, and he is a hard character to relate to, but picking and choosing facts to suit your premade conclusions is rather dishonest.
Edited by sooper mouse on 19 November 2016 10:29:02
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Morphenniel
If Servalan has a disorder at all, I'd say she's more of a Narcissist than a sociopath. At the end of Children of Auron she's distraught over the destruction of her foetuses while simultaneously not being bothered about killing everyone on the planet. She sees herself as the victim here, her pain is important but others' isn't. I dont think a sociopath would even have that level of feeling - from what I gather sociopaths don't feel much of anything really whereas narcissists are only able to consider their own feelings.
 
trevor travis
Morphenniel wrote:

If Servalan has a disorder at all, I'd say she's more of a Narcissist than a sociopath. At the end of Children of Auron she's distraught over the destruction of her foetuses while simultaneously not being bothered about killing everyone on the planet. She sees herself as the victim here, her pain is important but others' isn't. I dont think a sociopath would even have that level of feeling - from what I gather sociopaths don't feel much of anything really whereas narcissists are only able to consider their own feelings.


Good point.

I’m still tempted to bypass sociopath and go for full-blown psychopath in Servalan’s case, although I concur she’s a narcissist in addition.

I’ve found the following:

Do They Have a Conscience?

A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.

Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.

IMO Servalan has NO conscience – at no point do we see her hesitate over her actions in Children Of Auron.

Stepping away from that episode, there’s also her sadistic enjoyment of torturing Kasabi in Pressure Point. Even Travis seems taken aback somewhat, although he does his best not to show it. Or the way she simply doesn’t kill Mellanby in Aftermath. She taunts him and THEN kills him. Again, that’s not normal behaviour.

And her tears in Sand are crocodile tears designed to ensnare poor, gallant Tarrant. Actually this episode also adds further fuel to her being a narcissist. EVERYTHING is about her.

I can understand every other character. Avon, Blake, Travis, and so on. Yes, they do nasty things at times, but there’s always a certain reasoning behind it. I might not act in the same way, but I can at least understand why they’ve chosen to take a particular course of action. But there are quite a few occasions with Servalan when I think: “Why would anyone act like that?”. It’s not just the fact she is power-mad; there’s more to it than that. To me, Servalan is the one true psychopath that we see in Blake’s 7. Self-centred, greedy, cruel, vicious… and psychotic.
 
Morphenniel
That's interesting, TT. The previous stuff I'd read on the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths tended to be differentiating between killers and those who are highly successful and remain undetected.

This from Psychology Today:

Sociopaths tend to be nervous and easily agitated. They are volatile and prone to emotional outbursts, including fits of rage. They are likely to be uneducated and live on the fringes of society, unable to hold down a steady job or stay in one place for very long. It is difficult but not impossible for sociopaths to form attachments with others. Many sociopaths are able to form an attachment to a particular individual or group, although they have no regard for society in general or its rules. In the eyes of others, sociopaths will appear to be very disturbed. Any crimes committed by a sociopath, including murder, will tend to be haphazard, disorganized and spontaneous rather than planned.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, are unable to form emotional attachments or feel real empathy with others, although they often have disarming or even charming personalities. Psychopaths are very manipulative and can easily gain people’s trust. They learn to mimic emotions, despite their inability to actually feel them, and will appear normal to unsuspecting people. Psychopaths are often well educated and hold steady jobs. Some are so good at manipulation and mimicry that they have families and other long-term relationships without those around them ever suspecting their true nature.

When committing crimes, psychopaths carefully plan out every detail in advance and often have contingency plans in place. Unlike their sociopathic counterparts, psychopathic criminals are cool, calm, and meticulous. Their crimes, whether violent or non-violent, will be highly organized and generally offer few clues for authorities to pursue. Intelligent psychopaths make excellent white-collar criminals and "con artists" due to their calm and charismatic natures.

The cause of psychopathy is different than the cause of sociopathy (1). It is believed that psychopathy is the largely the result of “nature” (genetics) while sociopathy is more likely the result of “nurture” (environment).


It's possible to be both a narcissist and a sociopath, and Servalan is certainly a sadist.
 
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