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Who is your Favourite Guest Rebel?

Avalon - (Project Avalon)
Avalon - (Project Avalon)
18% [17 Votes]

Selma - (Horizon)
Selma - (Horizon)
5% [5 Votes]

Tyce - (Bounty)
Tyce - (Bounty)
14% [14 Votes]

Norm One - (Redemption)
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19% [18 Votes]

Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
Hal Mellanby - (Aftermath)
14% [14 Votes]

Hunda - (Traitor)
Hunda - (Traitor)
5% [5 Votes]

Deva - (Blake)
Deva - (Blake)
9% [9 Votes]

Other
Other
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Votes: 97
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Started: 09 July 2016

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Let's Diagnose our Heroes
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

I don't think Avon has any condition. He's just under increasing stress.


I have to disagree. There's nothing *normal* about Avon.
It's fairly well known in psychology that a high IQ is almost always correlated to various psychological issues. The solitude, insomnia and later paranoia are very standard symptoms.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

I don't think Avon has any condition. He's just under increasing stress.


I have to disagree. There's nothing *normal* about Avon.
It's fairly well known in psychology that a high IQ is almost always correlated to various psychological issues. The solitude, insomnia and later paranoia are very standard symptoms.


He's very normal. His prime instinct is to survive, and survive in as much comfort as possible. That's a very usual human trait.

Just compare him to Servalan, and how their behaviour differs, and you'll see how normal Avon is in comparison.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

I don't think Avon has any condition. He's just under increasing stress.


I have to disagree. There's nothing *normal* about Avon.
It's fairly well known in psychology that a high IQ is almost always correlated to various psychological issues. The solitude, insomnia and later paranoia are very standard symptoms.


He's very normal. His prime instinct is to survive, and survive in as much comfort as possible. That's a very usual human trait.

Just compare him to Servalan, and how their behaviour differs, and you'll see how normal Avon is in comparison.


everyone is normal compared to Servalan, I don't think that qualifies.
And even Servalan relates better to people than he does. She is a masterful manipulator, which is how she gained her power. She understands people's weaknesses and what makes them tick, and she uses that.
Avon however.., doesn't.
Because he doesn't actually care about relating to them. He's standing there in his bubble of Avonness and anyone who needs to talk to him has to go through that, which is why nobody's actually close to him, maybe except for Blake.
Avon doesn't even perceive himself as human, in his own words, and that's pretty far from any accepted normality.
The need for humans to belong with other humans, to be part of a community, is very deeply embedded in our nature. The lone human is an aberration
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

I don't think Avon has any condition. He's just under increasing stress.


I have to disagree. There's nothing *normal* about Avon.
It's fairly well known in psychology that a high IQ is almost always correlated to various psychological issues. The solitude, insomnia and later paranoia are very standard symptoms.


He's very normal. His prime instinct is to survive, and survive in as much comfort as possible. That's a very usual human trait.

Just compare him to Servalan, and how their behaviour differs, and you'll see how normal Avon is in comparison.


everyone is normal compared to Servalan, I don't think that qualifies.
And even Servalan relates better to people than he does. She is a masterful manipulator, which is how she gained her power. She understands people's weaknesses and what makes them tick, and she uses that.
Avon however.., doesn't.
Because he doesn't actually care about relating to them. He's standing there in his bubble of Avonness and anyone who needs to talk to him has to go through that, which is why nobody's actually close to him, maybe except for Blake.
Avon doesn't even perceive himself as human, in his own words, and that's pretty far from any accepted normality.
The need for humans to belong with other humans, to be part of a community, is very deeply embedded in our nature. The lone human is an aberration


I can't agree that Avon doesn't understand people.

Look at the end of Duel. He's the one person who understands Blake and realises that he won't kill Travis. In that moment, he shows his understanding of Blake is greater than Vila, Gan and even Cally.

And while we're looking at Duel, there's also this exchange:

GAN: “You're never involved, are you Avon? You ever cared for anyone?”
VILA: “Except yourself?”
AVON: “I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all.”
VILA: “Was that an insult or did I miss something?”
CALLY: “You missed something.”


An exchange that shows Avon has a greater understanding of human emotion than Vila.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:






I don't think Avon has any condition. He's just under increasing stress.


I have to disagree. There's nothing *normal* about Avon.
It's fairly well known in psychology that a high IQ is almost always correlated to various psychological issues. The solitude, insomnia and later paranoia are very standard symptoms.


He's very normal. His prime instinct is to survive, and survive in as much comfort as possible. That's a very usual human trait.

Just compare him to Servalan, and how their behaviour differs, and you'll see how normal Avon is in comparison.


everyone is normal compared to Servalan, I don't think that qualifies.
And even Servalan relates better to people than he does. She is a masterful manipulator, which is how she gained her power. She understands people's weaknesses and what makes them tick, and she uses that.
Avon however.., doesn't.
Because he doesn't actually care about relating to them. He's standing there in his bubble of Avonness and anyone who needs to talk to him has to go through that, which is why nobody's actually close to him, maybe except for Blake.
Avon doesn't even perceive himself as human, in his own words, and that's pretty far from any accepted normality.
The need for humans to belong with other humans, to be part of a community, is very deeply embedded in our nature. The lone human is an aberration


I can't agree that Avon doesn't understand people.

Look at the end of Duel. He's the one person who understands Blake and realises that he won't kill Travis. In that moment, he shows his understanding of Blake is greater than Vila, Gan and even Cally.

And while we're looking at Duel, there's also this exchange:

GAN: “You're never involved, are you Avon? You ever cared for anyone?”
VILA: “Except yourself?”
AVON: “I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care, or, indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all.”
VILA: “Was that an insult or did I miss something?”
CALLY: “You missed something.”


An exchange that shows Avon has a greater understanding of human emotion than Vila.



well, of course Avon gets Blake, they spend an awful lot of time staring at each other. But he doesn't seem to get anyone but Blake, and the whole point is that he doesn't care to ( and later Servalan)
In Duel, Blake is still a noble character, of course he wouldn't kill Travis in cold blood. Blake doesn't get cold hearted until later on.
The fact that Cally didn't get this is a bad mark against her. Vila and Gan... well it's a bit over their heads isn't it?

as far as the caring statement, on the contrary, that is pretty far removed from normal POV. Normal humans combine "caring" with becoming overprotective and possessive and doing the irrational stuff.
If anything, that statement shows just how far removed Avon is from normality. One doesn't NEED to to become irrational, it's something that happens because of the increased levels of hormones. It's not an actually voluntary process, and Avon's implication that it is shows that he doesn't actually gets it. He does care, and in this particular case I believe the statement is made about Blake, but he is uncomfortable with showing emotion around others, so he raises his drawbridge and arms his weapons.

That isn't about Vila not getting it, it's about Cally knowing something nobody else does. As she is a telepath and intermittent empath she probably understands the depth of feeling Avon has for Blake.
Cally would be a much better character if these traits were consistent. But she does constantly fail at getting it- which is very obvious in the beginning of Sarcophagus.
As stated before, there's Avon trying his best to care and be supportive for her, and she reacts by pushing him away, and with a rather condescending gesture, and it's rather obvious he takes it badly. Which is why he never actually shows it again.
Edited by sooper mouse on 18 November 2016 22:24:43
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
well, of course Avon gets Blake, they spend an awful lot of time staring at each other. But he doesn't seem to get anyone but Blake, and the whole point is that he doesn't care to ( and later Servalan)
In Duel, Blake is still a noble character, of course he wouldn't kill Travis in cold blood. Blake doesn't get cold hearted until later on.

as far as the caring statement, on the contrary, that is pretty far removed from normal POV. Normal humans combine "caring" with becoming overprotective and possessive and doing the irrational stuff.
If anything, that statement shows just how far removed Avon is from normality. One doesn't NEED to to become irrational, it's something that happens because of the increased levels of hormones. It's not an actually voluntary process, and Avon's implication that it is shows that he doesn't actually gets it. He does care, and in this particular case I believe the statement is made about Blake, but he is uncomfortable with showing emotion around others, so he raises his drawbridge and arms his weapons.

That isn't about Vila not getting it, it's about Cally knowing something nobody else does. As she is a telepath and intermittent empath she probably understands the depth of feeling Avon has for Blake.


It's not just Blake that Avon gets.

He also understand what makes the following people tick:
1. Cally - yes, she's a telepath. But Avon is the one who understands her the best, and the one who comforts her in Sarcophagus.
2. Vila
3. Servalan
4. Del Grant. An irony here, because he didn't get Anna. But again that's very normal behaviour, because he was blinded by love.

I don't see Avon suffering from any condition in the series other than simple stress.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
well, of course Avon gets Blake, they spend an awful lot of time staring at each other. But he doesn't seem to get anyone but Blake, and the whole point is that he doesn't care to ( and later Servalan)
In Duel, Blake is still a noble character, of course he wouldn't kill Travis in cold blood. Blake doesn't get cold hearted until later on.

as far as the caring statement, on the contrary, that is pretty far removed from normal POV. Normal humans combine "caring" with becoming overprotective and possessive and doing the irrational stuff.
If anything, that statement shows just how far removed Avon is from normality. One doesn't NEED to to become irrational, it's something that happens because of the increased levels of hormones. It's not an actually voluntary process, and Avon's implication that it is shows that he doesn't actually gets it. He does care, and in this particular case I believe the statement is made about Blake, but he is uncomfortable with showing emotion around others, so he raises his drawbridge and arms his weapons.

That isn't about Vila not getting it, it's about Cally knowing something nobody else does. As she is a telepath and intermittent empath she probably understands the depth of feeling Avon has for Blake.


It's not just Blake that Avon gets.

He also understand what makes the following people tick:
1. Cally - yes, she's a telepath. But Avon is the one who understands her the best, and the one who comforts her in Sarcophagus.
2. Vila
3. Servalan
4. Del Grant. An irony here, because he didn't get Anna. But again that's very normal behaviour, because he was blinded by love.

I don't see Avon suffering from any condition in the series other than simple stress.


not really.

He tries to comfort Cally, and she pushes him away. His attempt is rather not welcome and her gesture of pushing him away is not something he expected. That's a crossed wire right there.

Vila? he tried to kill Vila and then he's treating Vila's feelings as irrelevant, which i actually hurting Vila throughout the series. If he got Vila he wouldn't demean him so much and so often.

Servalan? If he got Servalan he wouldn't be losing to her so often. He might regard her as a mighty foe, but he doesn't get her, which is why she is always ahead. He actually trusts her to be a decent person every once in a while which is the best possible proof that he doesn't get her.

Del Grant? At best he sees him as someone with whom he has a common past and some common present interests. Avon is smart enough to put on a face for his immediate interests.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Vila? he tried to kill Vila and then he's treating Vila's feelings as irrelevant, which i actually hurting Vila throughout the series. If he got Vila he wouldn't demean him so much and so often.


There's an understanding between Avon and Vila. Of course, it breaks down after Orbit, when Avon is put in a corner. But I don't see his behaviour in this episode out of the ordinary - he's not out to kill Vila for the sake of it! Of course, the whole incident simply adds to Avon's stress levels.

I don't think Avon is deliberately hurtful to Vila. In City, he stands up for him.

Dayna is cruel to Vila, in a way that Avon never is.

Avon's mistakes and character faults (he has a few of those) are those of a very typical human being.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Vila? he tried to kill Vila and then he's treating Vila's feelings as irrelevant, which i actually hurting Vila throughout the series. If he got Vila he wouldn't demean him so much and so often.


There's an understanding between Avon and Vila. Of course, it breaks down after Orbit, when Avon is put in a corner. But I don't see his behaviour in this episode out of the ordinary - he's not out to kill Vila for the sake of it! Of course, the whole incident simply adds to Avon's stress levels.

I don't think Avon is deliberately hurtful to Vila. In City, he stands up for him.

Dayna is cruel to Vila, in a way that Avon never is.

He despises Vila.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Vila? he tried to kill Vila and then he's treating Vila's feelings as irrelevant, which i actually hurting Vila throughout the series. If he got Vila he wouldn't demean him so much and so often.


There's an understanding between Avon and Vila. Of course, it breaks down after Orbit, when Avon is put in a corner. But I don't see his behaviour in this episode out of the ordinary - he's not out to kill Vila for the sake of it! Of course, the whole incident simply adds to Avon's stress levels.

I don't think Avon is deliberately hurtful to Vila. In City, he stands up for him.

Dayna is cruel to Vila, in a way that Avon never is.

Avon's mistakes and character faults (he has a few of those) are those of a very typical human being.


If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:He despises Vila.


No he doesn't. Killer, Gambit and City all give examples of their relationship. They aren't close friends, but have an appreciation of each other's skills. Their skills are overlapping - both are into thievery.

In fact, a good example is Gold, an episode about a grand theft. It's not locks, so Vila is the teleport operator, but it's interesting how Avon asks Vila for his opinion, his fellow thief amongst the crew.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:He despises Vila.


No he doesn't. Killer, Gambit and City all give examples of their relationship. They aren't close friends, but have an appreciation of each other's skills. Their skills are overlapping - both are into thievery.

In fact, a good example is Gold, an episode about a grand theft. It's not locks, so Vila is the teleport operator, but it's interesting how Avon asks Vila for his opinion, his fellow thief amongst the crew.


Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:
Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait


Avon's bark is frequently worse than his bite. What he says and does are two different things.

Again, there's nothing unusual about that.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink


you may have a different idea of a "human being" than me.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait


Avon's bark is frequently worse than his bite. What he says and does are two different things.

Again, there's nothing unusual about that.


except for the part where his actions towards Vila are in line with his words.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
Rainesz
I'm sitting here quietly on the sidelines absolutely fascinated by this conversation. Grin
 
trevor travis
Rainesz wrote:

I'm sitting here quietly on the sidelines absolutely fascinated by this conversation. Grin


Go on... join in. Grin
 
sooper mouse
trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
Sure it's not like Avon says it openly.
OH... wait


Avon's bark is frequently worse than his bite. What he says and does are two different things.

Again, there's nothing unusual about that.


If Avon's behaviour would have been even remotely in the realm of normal, he would have been normal in Space Fall.
We are talking about the guy who was perfectly willing to aid the London's crew into dumping all of the other prisoners into space.
I have concluded that Jenna is Blake-aware, Blake is Avon-aware, Avon is self-aware and Gan is rarely aware. Vila is merely wary. Cally is frequently more away than aware.
 
trevor travis
sooper mouse wrote:

trevor travis wrote:

sooper mouse wrote:
If Avon was just a typical human being he wouldn't be one of the most engaging characters ever played.


On the contrary, the fact that he's a very typical human being, with very typical faults, that makes him engaging.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one Wink


you may have a different idea of a "human being" than me.


I think very few human beings as "saints". We all have our little quirks and faults.

Avon is a highly intelligent man in some ways; a complete fool in others. That's not that unusual.

Maybe it's because TV is so sanitized that when a TV programme comes along with 'real characters' that we want to pigeon-hole them as suffering from various conditions when actually they are characters behaving in relatively normal ways to extraordinary circumstances.
 
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